Gillette New Debutante set ID help please

Morman Bridge · Oct 16, 2013

I bought this set last Christmastime, and never identified it. Inside the case it says "Debutante" with the usual Gillette logo, the outside of the case is blue, with scroll work around the edge. The handle of the razor is marked on the bottom ring, Pat Jul , or Jun, or Jan, 1920, USA, other patents pending. The first part of the date is unreadable to my eyes. I looked at the Mr Razor site and the only case like it is for a "Low Price Set" 1930. The photo on his site does not show the same interior as this one, but the same exterior. Can this be a correct set? Any help would be appreciated

http://pbckt.com/p3.JkN87A

http://pbckt.com/p3.JkNwFl

mblakele · Oct 16, 2013

My guess is a 1929-32 NEW, using up parts originally made for the Old Type Debutante set. Here is a similar set from Achim, albeit from Canada.

The patent date is for the 1920 New Improved: US1328024. It covered aspects of the NEW design, so Gillette continued to use it from ca. 1929-32 until the three classic NEW patents had been issued or reissued. So the razor is probably pre-1932. No patent numbers on the plate, right? Even if it does, it might be a leftover 1929-32 handle mated with a slightly later head.

The case, handle, and blade case look much like a late Old Type set, and Achim shows an Old Type Debutante from Canada with a very similar design. So my guess is the same set was available in the USA, and Gillette had a few cases and other parts left over after they discontinued the Old Type. That could have happened any time in the 1929-32 range, I think. There is also a passing mention in the 1926 Gillette Blade, but it is snippet view only on google books. There may also be a mention in the 1932 Hardware Age, Volume 130, Issues 1-7 - also snippet view only, but apparently listing all the then-extant Gillette sets.

Morman Bridge · Oct 16, 2013

Thank you for your response mblakele, so am I correct in assuming this set is correct? It sounds like it should be, although I'll continue to look through the above referenced material. Thank you sir.

mblakele · Oct 16, 2013

It seems plausible enough. The early Gillette company hated to waste anything. So if they had any leftover cases marked Debutante, they would want to use them and would not want to ship unmodified Old Type heads. So they would have ended up with NEW or Goodwill heads.

Stampede · Oct 16, 2013

Sorry but when I went to your photo links all I could focus on was the Dyna. Nice ride. What year is that? 2011?

Morman Bridge · Oct 16, 2013

Hello Stampede, it's a 2012 Dyna FXDC. It's my second pride and joy of my life. The main pride and joy of my life is my mate Christina. I saw that FXDC at the dealership here in Omaha, and it haunted me for a month till I finally got it. I traded my 09 Sporty for it. Thanks for the compliment sir, it is much appreciated.

alex2363 · Oct 16, 2013

mblakele said:
My guess is a 1929-32 NEW, using up parts originally made for the Old Type Debutante set. Here is a similar set from Achim, albeit from Canada.

The patent date is for the 1920 New Improved: US1328024. It covered aspects of the NEW design, so Gillette continued to use it from ca. 1929-32 until the three classic NEW patents had been issued or reissued. So the razor is probably pre-1932. No patent numbers on the plate, right? Even if it does, it might be a leftover 1929-32 handle mated with a slightly later head.

The case, handle, and blade case look much like a late Old Type set, and Achim shows an Old Type Debutante from Canada with a very similar design. So my guess is the same set was available in the USA, and Gillette had a few cases and other parts left over after they discontinued the Old Type. That could have happened any time in the 1929-32 range, I think. There is also a passing mention in the 1926 Gillette Blade, but it is snippet view only on google books. There may also be a mention in the 1932 Hardware Age, Volume 130, Issues 1-7 - also snippet view only, but apparently listing all the then-extant Gillette sets.

It looks like they may have used the 1921-28 blue case from Old Type Set.......

Morman Bridge · Oct 17, 2013

Thank you too, Alex.

mr-razor · Oct 17, 2013

The Debutante comes in a blue case too, but I know him only as Old Type from the 20s:

$1920s Debutante Blue from @marinaissocharmed-01.jpg

mblakele · Oct 17, 2013

mr-razor said:
The Debutante comes in a blue case too, but I know him only as Old Type from the 20s:

Thanks, Achim. That agrees with what I can see in snippet view from the 1926 Gillette Blade, which seems to describe the Debutante as a gold razor in "rose or blue cases with French gray linings". In 1926 that would be the Old Type, of course.

If the 1932 Hardware Age vol. 130 reference is correct, then there must have been a NEW version later on. But the evidence is not strong. The snippet seems to be an alphabetical list of Gillette razor sets: I can see that it starts with Algonquin and Big Fellow. But it cuts off before Debutante, and no libraries near me have a copy. Also Google Books sometimes gets the date wrong.

Alex, if you are motivated you could ask the NY Public Library for it: http://catalog.nypl.org/search~S1?/o1751761/o1751761/1,1,1,B/holdings&FF=o1751761&1,1, says that they have a copy in offsite storage.

Another plausible explanation is that some previous owner replaced the Old Type razor, or just the head, with a later NEW. That could happen if the original was lost or damaged, or just because the owner preferred it that way.

Morman Bridge · Oct 17, 2013

Thank you gentlemen, for all the input. The razor set is still the same as I recieved it. I purchased it from somewhere in California, on eBay around last Christmas. Unfortunately, I didn't and don't keep records of my razor purchases, but it may be possible to find records of the listing through eBay, to prove it is the same as I bought it. At any rate, it would be too bad if this set is not correct. Thank you again for all your efforts guys.

mblakele · Oct 17, 2013

Here is a completed listing from August for a similar razor, with shipper: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gillette-Debutante-Safety-Razor-/221271672930. This one has all three NEW patent numbers on the plate. But the shipper lists the New Improved patent and "other patents pending". The handle also appears to have the New Improved patent. Oddly while the lining looks like "French gray" the Debutante branding is only on the outside of the case.

Despite the discrepancies, I am inclined to believe the set is original. The different patent numbers would not really matter, because the 1920 New Improved patent was still valid until 1937. We have seen old photos of the Gillette factory, with baskets of parts ready to be assembled. Shippers were probably printed in large batches, and cases made in large batches too. Possibly parts could get lost, especially with the disruption around the 1929-31 patent fight and takeover. But any time after the NEW-style blades were introduced, the company would want to encourage use of the NEW blades. So any leftover cases would be filled with Goodwill or NEW heads.

Morman Bridge · Oct 17, 2013

Thanks, when I looked closer at all the razor parts they all seem to me to have the same consistency of plating, meaning they all look like they were plated in the same batch- such as all parts have identical plating properties seems like. I think , and am hoping the set is correct. Your input has been greatly appreceated mblakele. It's a nice set.

alex2363 · Oct 17, 2013

mblakele said:
Thanks, Achim. That agrees with what I can see in snippet view from the 1926 Gillette Blade, which seems to describe the Debutante as a gold razor in "rose or blue cases with French gray linings". In 1926 that would be the Old Type, of course.

If the 1932 Hardware Age vol. 130 reference is correct, then there must have been a NEW version later on. But the evidence is not strong. The snippet seems to be an alphabetical list of Gillette razor sets: I can see that it starts with Algonquin and Big Fellow. But it cuts off before Debutante, and no libraries near me have a copy. Also Google Books sometimes gets the date wrong.

Alex, if you are motivated you could ask the NY Public Library for it: http://catalog.nypl.org/search~S1?/o1751761/o1751761/1,1,1,B/holdings&FF=o1751761&1,1, says that they have a copy in offsite storage.

Another plausible explanation is that some previous owner replaced the Old Type razor, or just the head, with a later NEW. That could happen if the original was lost or damaged, or just because the owner preferred it that way.

Mike, I been busy as of lately with my lawyers, doctors and few other personal issues and it has been difficult to really indulge in my fave hobby here at B&B....but thanks for the link, i will definitely look into it.

Joe D · Oct 25, 2013

I have a Debutante set that has the NEW head in the rose case.
Smooth lower portion of handle inscribed -
PAT. JAN. 13 1920 U.S.A.
OTHER PATENTS PENDING

mblakele said:
If the 1932 Hardware Age vol. 130 reference is correct, then there must have been a NEW version later on. But the evidence is not strong. The snippet seems to be an alphabetical list of Gillette razor sets: I can see that it starts with Algonquin and Big Fellow. But it cuts off before Debutante, and no libraries near me have a copy.

Another plausible explanation is that some previous owner replaced the Old Type razor, or just the head, with a later NEW. That could happen if the original was lost or damaged, or just because the owner preferred it that way.

alex2363 · Oct 26, 2013

mblakele said:
Thanks, Achim. That agrees with what I can see in snippet view from the 1926 Gillette Blade, which seems to describe the Debutante as a gold razor in "rose or blue cases with French gray linings". In 1926 that would be the Old Type, of course.

If the 1932 Hardware Age vol. 130 reference is correct, then there must have been a NEW version later on. But the evidence is not strong. The snippet seems to be an alphabetical list of Gillette razor sets: I can see that it starts with Algonquin and Big Fellow. But it cuts off before Debutante, and no libraries near me have a copy. Also Google Books sometimes gets the date wrong.

Alex, if you are motivated you could ask the NY Public Library for it: http://catalog.nypl.org/search~S1?/o1751761/o1751761/1,1,1,B/holdings&FF=o1751761&1,1, says that they have a copy in offsite storage.

Another plausible explanation is that some previous owner replaced the Old Type razor, or just the head, with a later NEW. That could happen if the original was lost or damaged, or just because the owner preferred it that way.

They want a fee to join........that sucks.

alex2363 · Oct 26, 2013

Joe D said:
I have a Debutante set that has the NEW head in the rose case.
Smooth lower portion of handle inscribed -
PAT. JAN. 13 1920 U.S.A.
OTHER PATENTS PENDING

View attachment 379307

As Mblakele stated the patents would not matter since they were valike til 1937.

Joe D · Oct 26, 2013

OK Alex. I was commenting re: mblakele's statement:
If the 1932 Hardware Age vol. 130 reference is correct, then there must have been a NEW version later on. But the evidence is not strong.

Just wanted to show my set as 'evidence' to add to your discussion..
- Joe

Morman Bridge · Oct 26, 2013

Thank you too Joe, for your contribution to the thread also.

alex2363 · Oct 26, 2013

Joe D said:
OK Alex. I was commenting re: mblakele's statement:
If the 1932 Hardware Age vol. 130 reference is correct, then there must have been a NEW version later on. But the evidence is not strong.

Just wanted to show my set as 'evidence' to add to your discussion..
- Joe

OH, i didnt see that in the post, thanks for adding it for future referencing.

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