This post is exactly what I was looking for thanks. After a few shaves of not being able to get the lather just right I was gonna make a post to see what i was doing wrong. It seems I'm adding a bit to much water although it does seem like I am doing a good enough job with the loading the brush. Hopefully I manage to remember this for next time and get the lather right.
You CANNOT make decent lather with six teaspoons of water ....
- Thread starter JCinPA
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JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
Sorry.I was thinking that, actually. They were my cell phone. I'm actually not a bad photographer, but I did not have a real camera.
Great post, and point well taken. To each his own, but I've never felt a need for elaborate lathering "recipes". I'm a face-latherer, and all I ever do is:
Oh: I do sprinkle a few drops of warm water on the soap before loading the brush, but there are two schools of thought about that. My attitude is, "Can't hurt, might help."
P.S. That silvertip brush -- wow!
- Immerse brush in warm water for 15-20 seconds
- Give a gentle squeeze to the brush to release excess water
- Swirl brush on soap for maybe 30 seconds, or spread cream on face
- Lather face. If lather is too wet, add more soap (re-swirl the brush) or more cream; if too dry, dip the tips of the brush (not the entire brush!) in water.
Oh: I do sprinkle a few drops of warm water on the soap before loading the brush, but there are two schools of thought about that. My attitude is, "Can't hurt, might help."
P.S. That silvertip brush -- wow!
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Another fun thread about the sweet science of shaving! I'm enjoying these.
By the way, John, what kind of brush is that?
By the way, John, what kind of brush is that?
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- #25
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
I just thought of this, both you and Captp are starting with a dry brush trying to measure the weight of the water in the brush. You are missing the point. I started with a brush that had soaked for a while. the weight of a wet badger brush is going to be higher than a dry brush, even if you pump/squeeze/flick most of the water out.
My point was that I have read--and more than a few times--folks talking about making lather after soaking the brush and then talked about adding copious amounts of water. NOBODY here starts talking about making lather with a dry brush. I don't think you guys are getting my point, frankly.
Soak your brushes, then get them reasonably dry (not as dry as when you put them away after shaving), and measure out an almond-sized dollop of cream. Now try to make lather with 6 teaspoons of water. You will not be able to do it. If you dry the brush overnight and start without soaking it you might be able to do it. But that's not how anybody makes lather and that's not how anybody advises people to make lather. I had to think about your post a while before I realized this. You are overcomplicating all this with the weighing a dry brush. And it's not relevant to the real shaving world.
Put away your scales and do it like I did it, because that is the kind of poor advice post I've come across describes it, starting with a soaked brush, and the kinds of problems noobs have posted about having. Soak your brushes like you normally do. Squeeze/shake them reasonably dry, then try to build your lather with 6 teaspoons of water.
I say it again, as a categorical, you can't. You are not gettting different results, you are not going to get different results. And no, TOBS is not up to the task, rajagra. It's basically the same as the AOS, and I have TOBS and it behaves the same way. All this weighing dry brushes, then wet brushes and converting the weight differential to water volume is simply obfuscating the issue I am raising. We get too darn scientific around here sometimes. It's SHAVING folks, not orbital mechanics. I thought of this when a noob posted a lather issue in the clinic the other day and about a dozen of us came in and said, "Use more product and less water." Then in comes a guy who knows how to make lather who says, "We need photos of your lather and more data to evaluate your issue."
No we don't. He was using too little product and too much water. How do we know? He told us that. And a dozen experienced latherers told him to use more product and less water. Now we need photos, a chemical analysis of the water, and to determine what phase the moon is in???? We don't. We just don't.
I was not giving a 'recipe' I was giving a method. Start with a soaked brush like we all do when shaving, without exception pump/squeeze most of the water out, use a reasonable amount of product and try to lather with 6 teaspoons of water. Neither of you will be able to do it. I guarantee it. This is definitely not YMMV. The weight of the dry brush is an irrelevant distraction, and these kinds of approaches, I believe, are perhaps what lead noobs to watery lather.
Anyway, do it my way because nobody starts the lathering process with a bone dry brush. Including the water in the brush when you start seems to move the discussion in your direction--that you are actually getting different results. And you're not. Granted, you may be starting with more water in your brush than I did in my procedure, and you may like a somewhat runnier lather than in my photos. That's fine.
But I stand by my initial position nobody around here is going to be able to get a good shaving lather with a reasonable amount of product, starting with a soaked brush and incorporating 6 teaspoons of water. No product will incorporate that much water, period.
Science is good
John, I DO get your point, but I did kind of miss the you were talking about an EXTRA 6 tsps of water after starting with a wet brush. I actually help prove your point in that I find I use a total of about 4 tsps for Cella (the thirstiest soap out there) and maybe half that for MB, another fairly thirsty soap. If I added an extra 2-4 tsps of water, I'd have a totally useless lather.
I've often wondered why so many users report problems with leathering Cella and MB, and you may have hit the nail squarely on the head with your explanatiit, especially for MB.
I'm going to repeat my measurements with my CH2, my largest knot, to see what happens. I get about 5 tsps on Cella method and just a bit less on MB method (slight squeeze) and about 3.5 with a real good squeeze. Again, adding an additional 6 tsps would ruin it.
I think your OP would make a good addition to the WIKI on lathering.
I've often wondered why so many users report problems with leathering Cella and MB, and you may have hit the nail squarely on the head with your explanatiit, especially for MB.
I'm going to repeat my measurements with my CH2, my largest knot, to see what happens. I get about 5 tsps on Cella method and just a bit less on MB method (slight squeeze) and about 3.5 with a real good squeeze. Again, adding an additional 6 tsps would ruin it.
I think your OP would make a good addition to the WIKI on lathering.
No, I think you are. My data is supporting what you say! Sorry that you don't appreciate it.
Even my bone dry 24mm badger only holds on to 4.2 tsp of water when soaked for a minute with agitation.
I only started with a dry brush to establish the absolute maximum amount of water that could fit into the brush with a 1 minute soak.
You may think it's irrelevant, but it's a glaring omission from your analysis - you ignored a major variable. I was trying to help!
FWIW Some people do soak the brush for just a minute - or only run it briefly under the tap.
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- #29
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
OK, Captp, sorry if I misunderstood. It was you saying you thought you were getting 'different results' that got me. Rajagra just clarified himself. I will say that saying the "TOBS is up to the challenge I laid down was ambiguous, to say the least. And I disagree with you, I did not miss a glaring variable, it was assumed. Every post on lathering without exception starts with a brush that has been soaked. Nobody starts instructing a new shaver this way, "now starting with a bone dry brush, I have concluded that it holds x teaspoons of water after soaking.' It's this kind of complexifying the thing that obfuscates these discussions. Whether you soak the brush while in the shower, soak it for a minute, or run it under the tap, none of that will get you a huge difference. Wet it, shake it reasonably dry, and your result may go to needing no added water (if you leave more in the brush to begin with) to maybe needing a teaspoon or a little more (if you get it too dry), that's the range. It won't get you to six.
My whole point with this was not to start a science project or a debate about how much water we can stuff into a product. My point was that noobs often come to the clinic complaining about thin lather and can't figure out why because they think they are following our instructions. What I think happens is some of us toss around specific measurements when we don't have a clear idea of what they are. That's why I did this. Some of us are giving the new guys the impression we can lather tiny little specks of "lather bomb" products and some will take prodigious amounts of water, and we're largely talking hyperbole, and the noobs get lousy lather because of it.
For someone learning how to wet shave, I'm a big believer in a structured, repeatable approach for them to learn on. I humbly suggest we should be aiming them toward known easy-to-lather products, foolproof products, and we should be urging them to measure their creams, even if it is as simple as dipping it out with their finger so they can see it. Swirling the brush in a tub of cream can get wildly differing amounts of cream involved. We should be telling them to use a TON of soap products, I don't care if it's glycerin or tallow, just use a boatload of it, and add water slowly and in very tiny increments. That's all.
Frankly, I think we've beaten this to death, and more experimentation, especially starting by weighing bone dry brushes, is only going to confuse matters for folks trying to learn how to lather. Unless you are using much more product than necessary (and I'm not stingy) if you start with a properly soaked brush, pumped/squeezed reasonably dry, none of you are going to get the water shown in that plastic cup into your product and get a workable lather.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel here, there are plenty of videos of good lather making on YouTube, and none of the good lathers you see there had anywhere close to that amount of water in them. I submit we just turn down the 'thirsty product' and talking about the spoonfulls of water we think we are using (I don't think those posters actually are-they are tossing around measurements in their head, not actual measurements), and point them to those videos and we'll be doing them a service.
My whole point with this was not to start a science project or a debate about how much water we can stuff into a product. My point was that noobs often come to the clinic complaining about thin lather and can't figure out why because they think they are following our instructions. What I think happens is some of us toss around specific measurements when we don't have a clear idea of what they are. That's why I did this. Some of us are giving the new guys the impression we can lather tiny little specks of "lather bomb" products and some will take prodigious amounts of water, and we're largely talking hyperbole, and the noobs get lousy lather because of it.
For someone learning how to wet shave, I'm a big believer in a structured, repeatable approach for them to learn on. I humbly suggest we should be aiming them toward known easy-to-lather products, foolproof products, and we should be urging them to measure their creams, even if it is as simple as dipping it out with their finger so they can see it. Swirling the brush in a tub of cream can get wildly differing amounts of cream involved. We should be telling them to use a TON of soap products, I don't care if it's glycerin or tallow, just use a boatload of it, and add water slowly and in very tiny increments. That's all.
Frankly, I think we've beaten this to death, and more experimentation, especially starting by weighing bone dry brushes, is only going to confuse matters for folks trying to learn how to lather. Unless you are using much more product than necessary (and I'm not stingy) if you start with a properly soaked brush, pumped/squeezed reasonably dry, none of you are going to get the water shown in that plastic cup into your product and get a workable lather.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel here, there are plenty of videos of good lather making on YouTube, and none of the good lathers you see there had anywhere close to that amount of water in them. I submit we just turn down the 'thirsty product' and talking about the spoonfulls of water we think we are using (I don't think those posters actually are-they are tossing around measurements in their head, not actual measurements), and point them to those videos and we'll be doing them a service.
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- #30
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
Hey, folks? I think we should stop this, we're beating the proverbial dead horse, and at least rajagra was feeling a little dissed. I did not want to cause any arguments. We're all friends here.
But we all get the idea here, any more "clarifications" or experiments are only going to obfuscate the main point. Let's stop talking about lathering bombs out of almost no product and using copious amounts of water to new shavers, it does not help trying to get them to use almost no product and some of us talk about measurements we really have no conception of, that's all.
It's been said, I think it's been said clearly, and now the science is starting to get out of hand and folks are getting testy.
Let's just get out there and tell noobs to use more product and less water and be done with it. And if you want to give 'recipes' including measurements, please go to the kitchen and verify your recipe, with measuring spoons, before posting it. That's all! I don't think any more talk about dry brushes is going to make this any simpler, in fact it's going the opposite direction.
Thanks for the nice comments!
But we all get the idea here, any more "clarifications" or experiments are only going to obfuscate the main point. Let's stop talking about lathering bombs out of almost no product and using copious amounts of water to new shavers, it does not help trying to get them to use almost no product and some of us talk about measurements we really have no conception of, that's all.
It's been said, I think it's been said clearly, and now the science is starting to get out of hand and folks are getting testy.
Let's just get out there and tell noobs to use more product and less water and be done with it. And if you want to give 'recipes' including measurements, please go to the kitchen and verify your recipe, with measuring spoons, before posting it. That's all! I don't think any more talk about dry brushes is going to make this any simpler, in fact it's going the opposite direction.
Thanks for the nice comments!
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- #31
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
A couple of you have asked about the brush ... Beautiful ebony handle (nice dark brown streaks you can't see without direct light) and a TGN Silvertip made by King1976. He has posted some of his wares in the BST and vendor corner.
Captp, I think you have one of his brushes, too, yes? Care to comment? I love mine, it's awesome.
Captp, I think you have one of his brushes, too, yes? Care to comment? I love mine, it's awesome.
Just for the record - TOBS Almond is!
6 tsp of water was far more than needed, but it was still good. Wetter than I like, but good.
http://www.g-ray.co.uk/pictures/Shaving/6TspTest/
Boring details: Soaked brush for another 15 minutes; lightly bobbed it and very gently squeezed (weighed it, had 2.8 tsp of water in it still); added 1/2 tsp of TOBS Almond in *empty* scuttle; mixed 1 minute; added 1 tsp water at a time, mixing 1 minute each time; mixed a bit more at end.
Great post! This should help out some new wet shavers that are having troubble whipping up a good lather.
Excellent post, John. Also liked the video of Al Shaving cream. Thanks for posting.
This. Exactly this.
This is also the reason I can no longer set foot in the clinic. We are talking about shaving, people, not orbital mechanics or home appendectomies. Get a brush, a razor and some blades, watch a Mantic tutorial or three and get to work. Entire generations of men have - and still do - shave this way. Work it out. Quit running to the board every time your shave doesn't conform exactly to the shadows in the Cave. Add more or less water next time, use more or less pressure, be more mindful of your blade angle. Turn off the water and the exhaust fan so that you can hear what is going on for crying out loud. If I see one more, "No BBS shave, what happened?" thread I think I'm going to expire.
There, I feel better.
I will now go and pray for the souls lost on 9-11-01 and then retire to the Reviews forum where I can assuage my angst by reading Marco's lyrical prose extolling the virtues of Italian cream soaps.
Cheers!
-Greg
I am new but have used 6 different soaps and have to say each lathers differently, you just need to find the sweet spot by trial and error. I can honestly say a 5 second load with Martin de Candre is plently but not even close to enough with TOBS soap. I think most of the time its too little product and too much water.
Aaron
Aaron
Jobn, I bought 3 of Teo's (King1976) brushes, and they're all excellent. I traded 2 of them (+ 6 others from my collection) for 2 Plisson Horn HMWs. It was a difficult choice as I like them all; TGN standard grade silverip; nice balance between soft, slight scritchy and density. Some folks have reported he standard grade as being too scritchy for them, but I like it. Very good latherer and all three have an excellent feel in the hand. I highly recommend Teo'is brushes.
To any Mods or WIKI editors, I think John's OP deserves a place in the lathering guides.
To any Mods or WIKI editors, I think John's OP deserves a place in the lathering guides.
To sum up:
more product,less water, and work it-gotcha!
Excellent post!
marty
more product,less water, and work it-gotcha!
Excellent post!
marty
