What Grit / Micron Size Is Required to Enjoy a Good Shave?

[Jnatcat]

Below is just a small excerpt from an article I read earlier and it gave me a lot to think about, I know we all want those laser edges ( Me included ) that makes the hair just melt away but at what point do we say enough is enough ?

For the straight razor shaver, the honing options have become rather bewildering over the past few years. Eighty years ago, you bought a barber’s hone and used an old belt, strap from a pair of suspenders or buggy harness as a strop. My Opa’s Riemen hung in the bathroom for decades, and I understand it came in handy for home discipline as well. The standard barber’s hone size was 5″ x 2.5″ They were sometimes longer, but most were thin enough to fit in a man’s pocket. They were typically baked in a mold, with a brand name cast into one end. The grit sizes were usually 6000 or 8000. Millions of men enjoyed comfortable shaves from razors honed on a single pocket stone and finished up on a leather strop. Some purists still swear by these two simple tools.

If you search YouTube today, you’ll see tutorials on honing a razor with Norton 4000/8000 combination and Naniwa Japanese synthetic stones or a full Shapton glass stone progression, Belgian coticules, Japanese natural stones (Jnats), South African Zulu Greys, German Thuringians or legendary Eschers (Gnats), Chinese natural stones (Cnats), Arkansas oil stones, and chromium oxide pastes on balsa or linen, diamond sprays on felt or roo, and CBN sprays on nano cloth, to list but a few options. How are you supposed to know which honing service to hire, or the stone and strop solution to invest in for maintaining your blade at home?

Can you get a shave ready edge with most, or perhaps even all of these honing options? Yup! But here’s the thing; if our forefathers enjoyed comfortable shaves with only a 6000 grit (4 micron) barber’s hone, do we actually need to go down to 0.10 microns (160,000 grit) CBN on nano cloth (or kangaroo) today, examined under a 600+ power microscope, simply because the technology now exists to offer that service? Will it shave appreciably better than what granddad had? Hmm…

 

[Steve56]

Synth or natural? The reason I ask is because I believe a good coticule outperforms it's raw grit rating based on the scratch pattern/profile. I also believe this is what distinguishes good jnats from great jnats, as Takeshi-San says, 'how the grit lays on the stone'.

That said, Mastro Livi apparently finishes razors on a 3k Kai knife hone and CrOx. The one experienced honer that I've spoken with said his edges are good but nothing to write home about.

I might add that our forefathers and we, continue to use 'buffers' to reduce scratch depth, like lather, mineral oil, butter (not really but it sounds good). Make the scratch shallow enough and you have polish.

I would also question the statement that they enjoyed comfortable shaves from 6-8k synths - as compared to a high end jnat? A fine coticule?

Cheers, Steve

 

[Snurgblat]

[Leaves forums to hone razors on sidewalk]

 

[Lmarkow]

I think this subculture is a bit loony. People think these razors and their associated gear are somehow magical, and their faces are exquisite measuring devices that can discern the difference between a 12k edge and a 20k edge, or a jnat edge and a coticule edge. Well I've tried and failed. Same with bevel angles. I think it's all BS, somewhere not too far above 5k.

 

[Sdm84]

I have to say I agree. Since doing my shave test after each stone to learn how the edge is changing I was shocked to get a decent shave off of my bevel setter and stropping.

I think we all chase comfort. I won't be abandoning my Jnat or my shaptons but I can see where back in the day the talent and skill of the barber to give a smooth shave with the technology at hand was really impressive!

I think it would be an interesting exercise to maybe do an edge swap and limit the parameters to what Will describes in his post. I wonder if we could equal the barbers of the past?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lmarkow]

I was shocked to get a decent shave off of my bevel setter and stropping.

Blasphemy!

 

[Slash McCoy]

No, I am not satisfied with the edge straight off any bevel setter in my arsenal. If it wont treetop well, with no fuss, then I won't even try. I HAVE shaved off a barber hone and lather. Meh. It works. There was a guy here who as sort of a challenge shaved off a 1k synth with lather. You can push a hone a LOT by using a buffering agent like lather, and using a LOT of laps with gradually diminishing pressure to the point where the blade is just floating. But since better options exist, it is sensible to use them.

Me, I am spoiled mostly by my post finish treatment. A shave from 1u film or a 1k Naniwa is perfectly adequate but I do enjoy the amazing cutting power and comfort of a properly executed edge that has seen a progression of diamond pasted balsa to .1u grit. The caveat here is that "properly executed" thingie. It is fairly easy to use all the best and most high tech and high grit tools and still get an edge that has you asking yourself why you even bothered going over 12k.

Anyway, yeah fairly modest setups can give adequate results, with knowledge, skill, and practice. A whole nother set of skills come into play when you start messing with modern standard finishers, and still other skills and techniques are needed to get the best results out of "hyper grit" abrasives like .1u or finer diamond, CBN, etc.

Yes, I can shave off a 3 line Swaty, but only because I have taken the time to learn how to use it effectively, the way my great grandfather would have used it. And I would rather shave off .1u balsa than straight off the 12k, but only because I have taken the time to learn how to use it.

I have never messed with Jnats but I had a brief flirtation with the coticule. If anything, skillful use is even more important for getting the best out of these rocks. It is not enough to just have great stones. And while a skilled honer can coax good edges from a mediocre stone, the best rocks combined with expert use is what makes the greatest of natural edges.

For most self-honing straight shavers who cant be bothered to chase the dragon, 1u film or a good 12k synthetic are the way to go. Standardized, formulaic methodology will give an edge superior to what even a good honer will deliver off a barber hone. These modern standard tools and methods are a distinct improvement over 1920s technology IMHO. Anybody can learn to shave off a barber hone. But it is a lot easier and nicer to shave off a 12k Naniwa superstone or 1u lapping film. A newbie can get a usable edge from a modern synthetic progression often on the first attempt. Along with several other members here, I have coached a number of newbies through their first film edges, but I would not want to be tasked with online teaching of Swaty or Arkansas honing.

My face definitely CAN tell the difference between a mediocre edge and a superior edge. I remember once many years ago buying a restored and shave ready Henckels 401 and at the time I finished on a very large, well lapped and conditioned hard Arkansas using Smiths honing oil with a little 40 weight motor oil added. The first time I shaved with the Henckels I immediately cut myself. That thing was a whole nother level of sharpness from my own edges. That's when I first saw the dragon. That edge was right up there with a decent DE blade. I spent the next few years trying to get there with my own edges. I still don't consistently get an edge like that Henckels had on it, but I usually do. And I can't get it off a barber hone. Ever.

Bottom line, you CAN hone Grandpa style and shave with the edge, but it makes a lot more sense to just buy a few sheets of lapping film and use modern methods for a better edge with less fuss.

 

[Lmarkow]

I read your words. But until you take two identical razors from a pro who put two different edges on them and marked them so he could tell which is which, and you tell me which is which without knowing the marks, all I've done is read your words. I may take you at your word, but given my actual experience doing just these tests, all I have is your word and my experience to draw my conclusions.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I read your words. But until you take two identical razors from a pro who put two different edges on them and marked them so he could tell which is which, and you tell me which is which without knowing the marks, all I've done is read your words. I may take you at your word, but given my actual experience doing just these tests, all I have is your word and my experience to draw my conclusions.

That would depend on what two different edges we are talking about. A good Jnat edge vs a fine synthetic edge with lather? No I probably could not tell the difference in a blind shave test. A barber hone edge vs a well done balsa/diamond edge? Certainly. The difference between a good 3 pass shave and only needing a single pass. The difference between a rather ordinary edge and an edge that cuts like a disposable blade.

 

[Lmarkow]

A barber hone edge vs a well done balsa/diamond edge?

I've not done this test. I can only guess at what my results would be, based on my attempts to tell the differences between other types of hones, different grit finishes, and bevel angles. I'm guessing I may be able to say which edge I prefer. But which is which? Flip a coin.

 

[Dick peck]

I've experienced a great edge from 1K 6K then stropped on multiple strops. I prepped one strop with green and one with red . Then porpoise fallowed by canvas then a couple if leather strops. Usually only works with very hallow ground blades. Sometimes 12K stone and lapping film up to 16K were needed on other grinds. So far for me it is kind of unique to each blade how I rea h shave ready. I think for maintenance a barbers hone and strop are probably good enough. When we (restore) our grandfather's blades I believe it's wide open. They bought new shave ready razors . I buy old Junkers so returning each blade to shave ready is always a little different. I can't afford some of the set ups so I have become experienced with what I have. So far only a couple of blades have beat me. They are in a box for when I know more one can get better equipment.

 

[Gamma]

Microns... well, it's not all about microns. I shave exceedingly well off a Trans Ark that is roughly 1.4k in the world of micron-peepers. So... yeah, it's not all about microns. It's entirely feasible that you can have a stone with a larger particle size that delivers a finer edge than one with a smaller particle size. Taking it further - .1 diamond is worlds different than say, .1 Fox. Yeah, so - no, not all about particle size. In an over generalized sense, I'd say that I would only be happy shaving off certain types of stones that are rated at least 10k on the JIS scale. But not all 10k JIS stones are gonna float my boat, so there's there.

 

[PaulMallorca]

At all times some people have been prone to try to find the best of anything. Shaving is not different. We have razors and stones that are more than 300 years old, and they show a lot of refinement. Today most don't care and use a supermarket razor, while some try to split hairs as best as they can.

Some European old stones are way over 6k, like cotis, la Lune, thuris, PDSOs, charnley forests, Candia, unnamed stones of all sorts... and they where pretty normal. Syntetics hones have never been a big thing on this side...

So I do think that at any given time, some people have try to find the best shaving experience, and most didn't care enough to do anything out of normality. At a given time in the US, it may have been a 6k barbers hone and a leather belt, but you can be sure in the same time frame some used arkansas hard stones, and spend (or did someone else spend...) countless loving hours till the edge was as comfortable as possible.

In a human characteristic: most do average, some push further... If you look at stone age tools, some are basic, some are intricately manufactured/decorated. I'm sure at the time some try to identify themselves cutting/decorating their facial hairs, and went a long way to get the best stones (obsidian) to make razors blades... and those obsidian edges are still the sharpest!

 

[martym]

Very interesting read!

 

[Jnatcat]

Today I managed to get up a tad early and thought more and more about the article I had read so I took the Boker King Cutter that I used for todays shave and ran it over my 4K Shapton GS stone to reset a firm bevel, I have recently have been looking at edges under a loupe coming of the 1K and have finally accepted that a 1K is really not necessary unless the edge needs a lot of work as it really leaves deep scratches that take some work to get out.

After the 4K I took it to a Narutaki Asagi with a heavy slurry and worked it pretty hard for about 10-15 mins and finished on almost straight water and then did 25 heavy laps on flax linen and 50-60 on leather and then I usually do an HHT but this time I said no just shave and see how it shaves and using a quality soap with good prep I was really pleased with the shave, no post shave issues at all and after I dried the blade and stropped and then did the HHT and it was a pretty solid 3 so now I guess I get to see how long the edge and great shaves last, oh and it only took about 20 mins from start to finish on the edge.

Maybe I should take the same razor and shave off the 1k, 4K, 8K and then finisher and compare how the shaves go...

 

[efsk]

We spend an insubordinate amount of time finding the DE that shaves most perfect, why not do the same with honing straights?
JNats were used in Japan long before we started talking about them on forums, and give an edge well beyond that of a barbers hone, an invention that postdates first use of the Charnley Forest stones. My Charnley Forest has a comparable grit of 15k when used with water, a couple of k higher when used with oil, and these stones were used for centuries until they stopped mining them end of the 19th century. They stopped mining because those newfangled things called synthetic stones were easier to lap.
Getting my razor sharpened to 15k and beyond is therefore something my ancestors did. Only difference is, I use synthetics to get my razors to the point where using the CF makes sense, where our ancesters used naturals to achieve the same.

 

[Jnatcat]

We spend an insubordinate amount of time finding the DE that shaves most perfect, why not do the same with honing straights?
JNats were used in Japan long before we started talking about them on forums, and give an edge well beyond that of a barbers hone, an invention that postdates first use of the Charnley Forest stones. My Charnley Forest has a comparable grit of 15k when used with water, a couple of k higher when used with oil, and these stones were used for centuries until they stopped mining them end of the 19th century. They stopped mining because those newfangled things called synthetic stones were easier to lap.
Getting my razor sharpened to 15k and beyond is therefore something my ancestors did. Only difference is, I use synthetics to get my razors to the point where using the CF makes sense, where our ancesters used naturals to achieve the same.

I am in the process of trying to find a decent barber hone to try that won't break the bank, not that its going to replace my JNATS just curious.

 

[lightfoot]

I don't know if I'm realy qualified to bring this up but I've had a lot of mixed results honing western straights. The results have been so mixed in fact that I've quit shaving with and honing them entirely. What has been working is a run of the mill Henkotsu kamisori that takes very little work to keep a shaving edge. The biggest difference to me is STEEL QUALITY! The difference between the steel on most of my folding straights and my kamisori are wildly different and the Henkotsu just seems to readily take an edge with a Naniwa 8k and a bit of finishing work on a basic piece of Nakayama. I just can't help but wonder how much we're having to contend with steel types that just don't take edges that well (or hold an edge) with "normal" honing effort?

 

[sfeile]

I read your words. But until you take two identical razors from a pro who put two different edges on them and marked them so he could tell which is which, and you tell me which is which without knowing the marks, all I've done is read your words. I may take you at your word, but given my actual experience doing just these tests, all I have is your word and my experience to draw my conclusions.

I was just having a conversation with another member that made me think of this post.

I did an edge swap with another member here. He honed two razors for me, both of which I know will take an exceptional edge. One was done on a J-nat, the other on an Arkie.
I could definitely tell a difference between the two. The Ark edge was sharp, but I felt like I had to convince it to cut. I got a smooth irritation free shave with no tugging at all, so I know it was sharp. It just needed a little extra effort to do so.
The J-nat edge, well that thing wasn't going to stop cutting if you put a brick in front of it.

Kind of like a quarter horse and a racehorse. Both will get you to the finish line, but the quarter needs a little nudging where as the racehorse you have to hold onto so it doesn't get away from you. I got the same end result from both razors, but the experience using them was completely different.

Could I tell what they were honed on without knowing? Probably not. Can I pick up the subtle differences in the edge while shaving? Most certainly.

As to the opening post, both of these stones (Ark and J-nat) in one variant or another were available at the time Barber hones were common, and compared to the couple Barber hones that I have, in my opinion, both are far superior.
I think just as now, there were people back then that would settle, while others searched for something better. They just didn't have these cool websites to talk about it.

 

[Lmarkow]

I was just having a conversation with another member that made me think of this post.

Glad to get you thinking. I'd invite you and your friend to try a blind test or two. See if you get the same results.