Wade and Butcher Restore

[rawknives]

Put this one back in action. Probably the worst pivot hole I’ve come across in a blade. Oblong crooked, and oversized.

 

[lloydw]

Very nice - that blade looks awesome. What did you fill the pivot hole with?

 

[rbscebu]

Very nice - that blade looks awesome. What did you fill the pivot hole with?

I use epoxy weld.

Most SRs have weird shaped and over-sized pivot holes. That is because the holes are formed prior to heat treatment that deforms the hole. It doesn't affect the function of the blade or the centring when closing.

 

[lloydw]

thanks for info - i have not bothered to try and fill the few odd shaped pivot holes i have seen, i havent done too many but have just left them and re-scaled.

 

[Legion]

I use epoxy weld.

Most SRs have weird shaped and over-sized pivot holes. That is because the holes are formed prior to heat treatment that deforms the hole. It doesn't affect the function of the blade or the centring when closing.

You are saying heat treating a razor enlarges and turns a round hole elliptical? Where did you come by that info?

 

[lloydw]

I am by no means any authority - I just assumed they were just the result of a more rudimentary process - perhaps still light forging after the hole is drilled or punched. I dont have many very old razors - but recall seeing this on one of my own W+B's and a Wostenholm pipe razor

 

[rbscebu]

You are saying heat treating a razor enlarges and turns a round hole elliptical? Where did you come by that info?

No, I did not say that. I said that heat treatment can deform the the shape of the hole. The deformation can be from next to none to quite noticeable. Pivot pin holes are drilled and others are punched before heat treatment. Once heat treated, it becomes much more difficult to produce a nice pivot pin hole in the steel.

The wear of the soft pivot pin against the hardened steel of the blade is not going to produce the larger and/or non-round pivot pin hole you find in SR blades.

Mind you, when re-scaling, I fill the pivot pin hole with epoxy weld and redrill it to the pin diameter. The only reason I do this is reduce the wear on the pin until it eventually comes in contact with the hardened steel.

 

[rbscebu]

I am by no means any authority - I just assumed they were just the result of a more rudimentary process - perhaps still light forging after the hole is drilled or punched. I dont have many very old razors - but recall seeing this on one of my own W+B's and a Wostenholm pipe razor

A while ago I unpinned a near new Rafl Aust to clean some oxidation. His pivot pin hole was rather oval in shape at about 2mm x 2.5mm. that was for a 1.6mm diameter pin. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos of it as it was nothing out of the ordinary for me.

 

[Legion]

I am by no means any authority - I just assumed they were just the result of a more rudimentary process - perhaps still light forging after the hole is drilled or punched. I dont have many very old razors - but recall seeing this on one of my own W+B's and a Wostenholm pipe razor

Yeah, in the old days obviously they didn't have the modern drill presses and drill bits that they have today, so sometimes the holes were made a bit wonky.

But a main reason you see old razors with over sized, strangely shaped holes is corrosion. Water has been allowed to enter the pivot, which is near impossible to get out. It rusts the hardened steel, turning it soft, then the repeated action of opening and closing the razor abrades it away.

I too fill oversize pivot holes with epoxy, or if they are really bad insert a brass tubbing shim.

 

[rawknives]

Very nice - that blade looks awesome. What did you fill the pivot hole with?

I filled it with bronze.

As stated above, the pivot pin will not wear the hardened steel blank. From the looks of it, this was punched out and was obviously not square to the die when it punched,

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, holes were punched and water and rust make the holes larger and wonky.

I have peened holes with brass and drilled new, epoxied and drilled, epoxied a brass tube, and cleaned/ sealed with rust converter and peened as is. If pinned tight it will not move much, just move the wedge back a bit for clearance insurance. Most old Sheffield's had the Wedge about a 1/4 inch from the tip of the toe to begin with.

Bottom line they all work.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Yup, holes were punched and water and rust make the holes larger and wonky.

Yep. The holes in the old Sheffields were punched. The hole in your Wade & Butcher, @rawknives, actually looks pretty good.

And, BTW, nice job on the restore!

 

[mycarver]

Water and rust have nothing to do with the holes and there’s no reason to “fix” them.
I have around 50 W&B and have restored scores of them. Never bothered with the hole.

And why if it’s “ water and rust “ didn’t the rest of the blade just deteriorate and just the hole? After all this time wouldn’t the end of the tang just fall off on hundreds of razors?
Nope.

 

[Gamma]

Sometimes pivot holes are square/rectangular. Sometimes oblong, distorted, etc. Other times more round but tapered from each side meeting at a smaller hole in the center. I'm sure there are other forms out there.
Those holes started out that way, the smith hammered them through with a punch, I would assume the steel was hot when this was done. Between the crude tools/method used to make the hole, and the steel's ductility, a perfect round hole wasn't gonna happen. I can't see the following heat treat altering the dimension significantly.

I've owned many mint Sheffields, not restored, just well kept, with the same size/shape bizzaro pivot holes found in basket-case blades.
I've yet to see a pivot hole that appeared to have been enlarged via rust.

 

[duke762]

I just did a W/B restore. The pivot hole bothered the heck out of me. Being a tool maker, I just had to make a brass bushing for the pivot hole and epoxied it in as square as I could to the blade. I used a #51 drill to give some clearance with the pin, backed up by .004" stainless thrust washers. If I accomplished nothing else, this razor feels incredible to open and close....

I'm working on a W/B very similar to yours right now. It's going to get a bushing also I believe. Probably not necessary, but my nature can't leave it alone...

Great job on the restore! ...And the ultimate question is...Have you shaved with it yet and how was it?

 

[rawknives]

And the ultimate question is...Have you shaved with it yet and how was it?

I did give it a test run and found it to be a very nice shave. The smile and softened tip made for very easy trim work without nicks.

Seems I started a firestorm on pivot holes, and everything from epoxy to sacrilege if you do fix it, but like you I don’t see why not fix something better then it was if you have the means and skill.