Vintage Stereo System Love

[Tirvine]

My, this little thread has had long legs here.

It's good to see the continuing interest in old audio gear outside of the enthusiast circles, especially as the youngsters today sadly tend to only listen to their phones. They have no idea how wonderful music at home once sounded. At one time, this stuff was the entertainment centerpiece of many a living room.

Ok ... I will share one of the many little tubed jewels from our collection.

This one does have the original box and owners manual. I picked it up at an auction about 30 years ago. The knucklehead seller snapped the dial cord lifting it out of the carton for photos. But it is a 30 minute fix I've done many times in the past, and we have the era-correct new white dial cord stock for whoever does it.

It is a Fisher 800C receiver, bought brand new in 1965 by an Air Force Colonel at PX. He was a doctor of some sort, perhaps medical. I will not name the original buyer's name, except to say his last name was not Bellows.

It has never been used. For whatever reason, the Colonel bought it and never used it. I do not know the Colonel's fate. It was sitting in a warehouse for decades, sealed. It is true new old stock equipment, with everything just as Avery Fisher packed it at their NYC factory in 1965, right down to the factory FM dipole antenna, and including the original sales receipt. It also has a rare dual line voltage capability, and can operate on 110 or 220 vac. Probably so that the Colonel could play it overseas as well as stateside.

Since acquiring it 30 years ago, it has remained in its original shipping container, exactly as shown here. I purchased it not to play, but as an investment, as I already have too many working tube instruments in service. But all it would need to safely operate is a re-cap of the electrolytics, and replacement of the flat pack selenium rectifier that supplies output bias and DC heating to the low level amp circuit. And it would sound exactly as Fisher intended it to sound six decades ago.

I am not going to say what I paid for it at auction 30 years ago. But I am fairly confident that I could sell it in 15 minutes to a far East audiophile for between $10 and $15,000 (maybe more), a fantastic multiple of what I paid for it. Just the brand new tubes alone are now probably worth at least a couple thousand dollars, including nine new Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7s, and a matched quad of Westinghouse 7591As (which are now impossible to find). Even the new dial lamps, being a rare fuse type size, are probably worth at least $100. And their scarcity and value are only going to go up.

I'll never hear it play. I'll likely pass it along to my son. It is already nearly 60 years old. I suspect it may someday wind up as a museum exhibit. We have several factory Fisher cabinets to display it in should that ever be needed.

But having several other working examples of both this model and others, I will say that the Fisher B and C series receivers were probably the finest sounding of the tubed stereo receiver era, and among the best and richest sounding stereo receivers ever made. They were certainly among the best selling. I understand that even beat up ones are now fetching $2,000+ when they do pop up. Which is amazing, considering I would often pick them up back in the day for well under $100 to save them from the curb.

We have many other tubed instruments about the house, that we run regularly, going back to the 1950s. And some other old vintage sandboxes, too. Even our intercom system from 1968 still works perfectly. I will try to post some other pictures of those things from time to time, as time and energy permits.



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A Fisher tube receiver with AR-3as and an Empire table was the first system to awaken SAD in me. The first stereo I bought after that was an actually really good Pacific Stereo receiver, OLAs, a TD150, and a Shure M91ed.

 

[Norman Gunston]

Setting up a second system.
Macintosh Pre-amp and Rotel Michi Power amp.

 

[ShavingPrimate]

It has never been used. For whatever reason, the Colonel bought it and never used it. I do not know the Colonel's fate. It was sitting in a warehouse for decades, sealed. It is true new old stock equipment, with everything just as Avery Fisher packed it at their NYC factory in 1965, right down to the factory FM dipole antenna, and including the original sales receipt. It also has a rare dual line voltage capability, and can operate on 110 or 220 vac. Probably so that the Colonel could play it overseas as well as stateside.

What you have is a serious find. It may be the only one of its kind in existence!

I have a 500C that has been restored, but not to the extent of sparkling like new! I am glad that I purchased it when I did. I would be hesitant to buy one on today's market.

For most people, even buying a restored unit would be somewhat of a liability. It has nineteen tubes and unless you have access to a good tech, maintenance will become an issue.

Vintage electronics are best served running off of a Variac. Back then, the voltage was 110-VAC. Now we operate around 117-VAC and higher. This places a lot of stress on the transformers and other power supply components.

One positive advantage of these old Fisher receivers are their power, with the 7591 power tubes being able to deliver a much appreciated 30-Watts. They can still drive most speakers.

I like the older integrated amplifier models with the smaller power tubes. They don't have the complex circuitry of the receivers and they can still be purchased at reasonable prices. I like that they are tube rectified, which I prefer over SS rectification on later models.

They are lower power, but very sweet sounding. Because I have several high sensitivity horn speakers, they work well for me. I have a Scott 222c.

It's good to see the continuing interest in old audio gear outside of the enthusiast circles, especially as the youngsters today sadly tend to only listen to their phones. They have no idea how wonderful music at home once sounded. At one time, this stuff was the entertainment centerpiece of many a living room.

I am actually surprised that we don't have more activity in this thread, owing to the "vintage" members on the forum? Also considering that the members often go out of their way to acquire vintage razors and other shave related gear.

Before retiring and relocating, I used to operate a small motel. I converted the lobby to my listening room. I used to invite some of the younger guests over and I had an audio analog extension cord that had a 1/8" connector. I would let them plug their portable devices into the main system. Many of them had never heard their music through a real stereo system before.

When addressing these out of the audio community, I find that they are equally split between two different factions. One is completely lacking in appreciating real sound. This is usually the ones who always walk around with some kind of headphones.

The other half are taken by what audio can really sound like. Unfortunately, probably less than 5% of the population have ever experienced what real audio can sound like.

 

[ShavingPrimate]

I have seen many wonderful vintage pieces Dr. Stereo'ed to death by well meaning but ill-informed enthusiasts who thought they could make them sound better than the original designers. The original design on these was a well-contemplated recipe of parts and circuit choices by their creators, often involving thousands of hours of listening tests and voicing tweaks throughout the circuits, to get the sonics just right. Sometimes new and "better" parts destroy that special balance.

Both my Marantz and my little Pioneer 13-Watt integrated were nice sounding amps. They both had a tube-like quality that my Sansui and Crown SS amps, did not possess.

 

[ShavingPrimate]

My stereo has been through a few evolutions and revolutions over the years. It currently has a Vinyl Nirvana VN150 with an Ortofon bronze 2m, a Rogue Sphinx, and Tekton Pendragons. The VN is a circa 1970 Thorens TD150 with a Rega Moth arm, Cardas wiring, extra damping, a cork mat, and a gorgeous mahogany plinth. It sounds better than both the stock TD150 with Kugel arm and the TD125 with SME3009 I previously ran.

I have a Vinyl Nirvana Thorens TD-150 Super. I believe it was their very first midnight edition? I have both the Ortofon 2M Bronze and the 2M Black with the Shibata stylus. My arm is also a Rega/Moth arm, upgraded with the Cardas wiring.

I had a nice tricked out Rega RP6 but I decided to keep the VN.

It is really a work of art and a workhorse! You would have to spend some serious cash to improve on its performance.

 

[Tirvine]

I have a Vinyl Nirvana Thorens TD-150 Super. I believe it was their very first midnight edition? I have both the Ortofon 2M Bronze and the 2M Black with the Shibata stylus. My arm is also a Rega/Moth arm, upgraded with the Cardas wiring.

I had a nice tricked out Rega RP6 but I decided to keep the VN.

It is really a work of art and a workhorse! You would have to spend some serious cash to improve on its performance.

Since the bronze and black are interchangeable in that body, how do they compare in your estimation?

 

[ShavingPrimate]

The Bronze was already on it when I bought the TT from another audio forum member. I thought it was a great cartridge.

The Black goes further. It is more dynamic and organic. Seeing that I already had the cartridge body, it was a smaller step in acquiring the Black stylus. I found one slightly used on eBay from a German seller. That made it in the mid threes.

One aspect of the cartridge that came as a surprise to me was the bass. It is the most bass I have ever experienced from phono cartridge. Yet is is not forced nor overwhelming. Very natural.

Two aspects that people list as negatives are the problem of aligning it and picking up surface noise.

I didn't have to worry with the alignment issue because the TT arm was already aligned when I bought it. It is a simple matter to change back and forth between the Bronze and Black stylus.

As to the surface noise, I find that the Bronze is a very quiet stylus in this regard. More so than any other stylus I remember owning.

But the Black with the Shibata stylus is very detailed and revealing. So I can't fault the Black for picking up surface noise that already exists in the grooves?

Both cartridges on this type of TT give a very solid feeling to the music.

How much surface noise you have depends directly on the condition of your records (and of course static build up).

Things like surface noise is usually a big thing with me. Having 103-dB sensitive Altec horn speakers, surface noise is very audible.

But, generally speaking, my records are in good condition and static was never an issue, as it might be in a cold dry climate.

Even with records that are less than pristine, I still find myself listening with the Black, due to its moving organic sound.

However, like tube amplification and low power amplification, there are benefits that work much better when you are employing speakers with high sensitivity and the dynamics that come with horn loaded speakers.

My other main speakers are Polk LSiM-707's. These are excellent speakers, but I don't realize the same benefit that I do when running the Altec's and tubes. I drive the Polks with a 250-Watt Emotiva XPA-2 SS power amp. I feel the expense of tubes is largely wasted on the Polks, which thrive of of a massive power supply.

Your Tektons are still best served by your Rogue Sphinx. Having a tube preamp section gives you the best of both worlds. Even though they are highly efficient, I doubt if they will benefit from the extra cost of having the 2M Black stylus.

It is the same that using tubes with them would be diminishing returns.

I have a pair of Rogue M-150's and they do serious things with the Altec A7's but for the best organic sound, I think the Altec's pair better with my lower power Class-A amps.

Could you do better with a larger SS amp? Maybe? But you would need a conventional A/B class amp with a lot of reserve power. Since your Tektons are highly sensitive to begin with, I doubt if it would justify the cost to upgrade. The Sphinx should be sufficient for your needs.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I have a now ancient Rega Planar 3.... and a Rega CD player. All those years ago, the Planar 3 was their top turntable.

Van Alstine amp and preamp, Vandersteen 2Ci speakers... Mid fi gear because I could never afford the top gear... but the system sure plays music.

 

[Wishoot]

I am actually surprised that we don't have more activity in this thread, owing to the "vintage" members on the forum? Also considering that the members often go out of their way to acquire vintage razors and other shave related gear.

I couldn't agree more. Along with the proliferation of new vinyl, there's a lot of vintage pieces out there and they're starting to command decent prices.

Vintage gear, not coming with Bluetooth or a remote, may limit it's appeal.

 

[Tirvine]

I couldn't agree more. Along with the proliferation of new vinyl, there's a lot of vintage pieces out there and they're starting to command decent prices.

Vintage gear, not coming with Bluetooth or a remote, may limit it's appeal.

Easily fixed by connecting an iGen or the like.

 

[Columbo]

For most people, even buying a restored unit would be somewhat of a liability. It has nineteen tubes and unless you have access to a good tech, maintenance will become an issue.

Vintage electronics are best served running off of a Variac. Back then, the voltage was 110-VAC. Now we operate around 117-VAC and higher. This places a lot of stress on the transformers and other power supply components.

That depends. I've been servicing and restoring vintage electronics for over 50 years now, and have only recently stopped as my eyes are failing. The biggest regular servicing item with tube gear is not so much the small signal ones, but the outputs in the case of amplifiers. And understanding how HV power supplies and circuits operate.

Most small signal tubes are good for at least 5,000 hours in conservatively designed circuit, and in the case of the W. Germans, I've seen examples with over 20,000 hours on them that still tested and sounded well. That is because the Germans pulled a much tighter vacuum on theirs than the Dutch, English or Americans did. Some say it also contributes their cleaner, crisper sonics, or as Mrs. C describes them as the "Telefunken sparkle, like fine champagne".

Many examples from the leading Hi-Fi makes from that late 50s to late 60s era -- unless tube stripped by sellers (and that happens with alarming frequency) -- have original small signal tubes from the electronic giants that routinely still operate well.

OTOH, the outputs on most need replacing every 1-3,000 hours, depending on how cool the biasing is set up. The old stock outputs are long gone, and even new production Russians are now getting very expensive. And that element (new outputs every so often) is the cost factor that chases less dedicated enthusiasts away. I have testers and many caddies full of all manner of tubes, and it is a non issue. But for the beginner looking at $3-400 (or more) in tubes every few years, with only his ears as his guide, it can become a disincentive to pursue tubes.

So for them, I will often recommend the inverse of conventional wisdom in a hybrid system: Buy a tubed front end and preamp, and use a very high quality solid state stage for final amplification. You'll get 80% of the tube listening experience, for 30% of the tube cost that way. And it won't need tube replacement maintenance for many, many years.

And the early solid state amp designs, employing germaniums and capacitive coupled outputs, have a warmer, more melodious tube-like timber to them, compared to the later designs. I used to pick up first generation Fisher and Scott solid state gear for free as a "throw in" decades ago. Now those "throw ins" (particularly the Fishers) are commanding very high three and four figure prices if still intact.

The trannies are rarely a risk with today's higher line voltages. The primaries on them are fairly robust, and are typically protected by a judicious chassis fuse choice. What imperils them are the filter capacitors, both as they start to electrically leak as they age, and should one develop a full short. A transformer secondary winding is easily burned open when that happens.

That risk is lurking whenever a newly found piece of unknown history is improperly handed by the novice seller or collector. Where that risk arises most acutely is on equipment where the original specification is run at or near the WV limits, as is the case on some second-tier (but very good sounding) makers such as Dynaco and a few others. There, the higher line voltage can push them past specification ceiling into leakage.

The same is generally true of the output trannies in amplifier sections, and it is good practice to install cathode fusing that will open before the output primary does. Why typically kills an output transformer is a bad output tube in an unfused circuit.

The original twist lock capacitor cans on these old timers, especially on the more premium makes, have been surprisingly robust. And unless someone failed to reform them after sitting, even after 50-55 years what I tend to see is not leakage, but fading capacitance, as the electrolyte slowly dries out. Energizing these ice cold after them sitting for years is what causes them to leak and short. Still, now at about 60 years out, it is a very good idea to re-cap the power supplies on even these, and higher WV replacements will handle the resulting chassis voltages from the slightly higher line voltages in many instances. But it is a case by case process, and the design specifications from the schematics should be contemplated beforehand.

I do not run my vintage equipment on variacs, as sufficient circuit adjustments and design tolerances allow them to operate just fine, for decades, on today's 120-124 volt US mains. I also didn't like the sonics consequences that a variac can create (although my advanced age now makes that much less noticeable). YMMV.

Again, the far more important thing with these is to bring them up on a variac the first time to reform the original capacitors if they not being replaced beforehand. That is an involved, time-consuming process that involves monitoring the current draw as it is being done. People find them, plug them right in, and energize them at full mains voltages, claim they "are working", and that is what damages them.

What some others will also do with these to reduce the stresses on the filters and transformer secondaries is to install thermistors as inrush limiters to control the starting surge. While that works well with solid state rectification, it is not needed with tube rectified units. There, the rectifier serves as the start up traffic cop, and can become a sacrificial with more difficult mains supplies and heavier filter loads. Of course, first-rate rectifier tubes can get quite expensive, too.

The greatest irony of all is that the older the equipment, the easier and less complicated it is to service and recondition it. The older tube equipment is primarily point to point wired, and even the early solid state instruments used spacious early PCBs and many easily-replaceable discrete passives and parts.

The later equipment, increasingly laden with IC chips, was increasingly not designed for discrete element repair, but for board swap outs. And in the case of the newest SMD gear, except at the very highest price points, is generally not designed to be serviced at all, but to be disposed of when it malfunctions.

Fortunately, the old equipment sounds better to my ears, so it all works out well in the end.

I am actually surprised that we don't have more activity in this thread, owing to the "vintage" members on the forum? Also considering that the members often go out of their way to acquire vintage razors and other shave related gear.

Well ... spending $20 or $30 on a vintage razor is not quite the same as spending $2,000 or $3,000 on a vintage era stereo item. And if you are not doing the work yourself, that's what a nice pre-1970 unit can sometimes cost, once all the necessary restoration work is added to the original cost, or if a pre-restored one is purchased ready to go. Even the later units generally need some work to sound as they once did. So even that later 70s Pioneer megawatt power amp might end up costing close to a grand to make it truly right.

And these systems, even in a modest bookshelf configuration, also take up space. Amps, preamps, front end components, sometimes tuners, and the associated power gear all need a place, for themselves, and all the wiring they demand. Even a receiver with a digital streamer still needs a pair of speakers put somewhere else. And I've noticed in recent years that people are less willing to set aside that kind of home space like in generations past. My main system sits in a big cabinet rack that extends over eight feet along the wall, and that does not include the big footprints for the floor standing speakers across the room.

At least TVs got to the point where you can just hang them on the wall, alongside the other pictures. They can take no space up today. Not so with a 45 pound tube chassis and a pair of wooden boxes to fill the room with sound. Sometime in the late 80's or early 90s, a lot of old two channel gear got 'retired' and replaced when the first home theater rage hit. And then that equipment slowly faded from the scene, as computers and mobile devices slowly started taking over the homes.

So here's that "garage system" Marantz 2230 mentioned earlier, fully reconditioned, about to sing to the cars ...

 

[Rico Suave]

I still have a pair of these Infinity speakers connected to my computer via a small cheap amp. Had them for roughly 40 years now, they still sound just fine. That said, can't say I miss vinyl at all.

 

[Wishoot]

spending $2,000 or $3,000 on a vintage era stereo item

Marantz

Marantz made some absolutely lovely stuff. Form. Function. Sound. All top notch.

But non-audiophiles have so many less expensive options like Pioneer, Technics, Hitachi, Harman Kardon, Sansui & Onkyo. Although I'm seeing the cost of higher end Pioneer and Sansui go through the roof.

My Technics SA-101 with a whopping 18 WPC cost me about $50 and an hour of cleaning. With decent speakers, you'd be hard-pressed to differentiate the sound it generates compared to my more expensive equipment.

I auditioned a restored Realistic STA-820 and it produced a beautiful, warm sound. The guy wanted $225 for it. Stereo receivers are harder to sneak into the house than razors, so I had to pass.

 

[Tirvine]

Not terribly old, but I always found the Yamaha stuff from the 1980s terrific. My dad had a Yamaha receiver of that vintage with small ADS speakers. It was lovely in his fairly small apartment. i had a much larger room to fill, and the M4 and C4 combination with some ADS 1290s filled the bill beautifully. I very much wish I still had it, but it fell victim to downsizing.

 

[Columbo]

Marantz made some absolutely lovely stuff. Form. Function. Sound. All top notch.

But non-audiophiles have so many less expensive options like Pioneer, Technics, Hitachi, Harman Kardon, Sansui & Onkyo. Although I'm seeing the cost of higher end Pioneer and Sansui go through the roof.

My Technics SA-101 with a whopping 18 WPC cost me about $50 and an hour of cleaning. With decent speakers, you'd be hard-pressed to differentiate the sound it generates compared to my more expensive equipment.

I auditioned a restored Realistic STA-820 and it produced a beautiful, warm sound. The guy wanted $225 for it. Stereo receivers are harder to sneak into the house than razors, so I had to pass.

Some Realistic-branded equipment from the 1970s was very decent sounding gear, and priced for the 'everyman'. It introduced a lot of young ears (including a lot of my friends) to good sound for not too much money. And for that, I am grateful. Mr. Tandy knew how to sell.

I deeply miss the old time Radio Shacks and Lafayettes. Not everyone had the scratch for expensive stuff. But before the 70s, Radio Shack even sold some of the upscale audio brands, too.

I wouldn't call any of the vintage makes "audiophile". Having ridden the hobby from an old broken Philco radio, all the way up to the very pinnacle of the 'high end', I found the old classics from the golden era were right all along. And that the term audiophile has a negative meaning for me in retrospect.

...

And now, lets have some fun with a little walk through audio history to see why ...

By golden era, I mean the earlier time of "Hi-Fi", when the pioneers were transforming the home experience, and half the people doing it were also building their own stuff in kitchens and basements. Mid 1950s to later 1960s. The industry then was dominated by individual men, and not massive corporations. Some were great engineers, others were music lovers who surrounded themselves with great engineers. Marantz, Mac (McIntosh), Fisher, Scott, Dynaco, HK, Sherwood. All good, solid US makes from that golden era that just make very good music, at a range of prices that nearly everyone could afford.

And if you couldn't afford it ready to go, several of them would even sell it to you in a kit. Nothing there to be ashamed of, it was all good stuff.

Even old standbys like RCA were in on it. RCA even pioneered some new records technologies to spur it along. And a hundred other supporting companies making speaker drivers, turntables and all sorts of audio 'gadgets' pitched in, too. It was the age of the hobby. And the people doing it were hobbyists and "enthusiasts".

Aunts and uncles and older relatives would eventually opt for the big furniture Magnavox and Fisher custom consoles, because, well, everything needed to be furniture to them. If they could squeeze their TV sets into them, too, all the better. Admiral and RCA and Zenith were happy to oblige them.

But we kept mixing and matching with our separates, and tweaking it all late at night on our electronics benches in the basements.

But even as we did these things, there was a tidal wave approaching fast. And it was going to wash everything away.

As the 60s wore on, the terms "solid state" and "transistorized" started taking over, suddenly getting plastered all over the equipment. And tubes were increasingly looked down on like some smelly, overweight, overheated, obnoxious-sounding, redheaded stepchild that ate too much, and took up too much space. And it was the space age, after all.

No matter that the early germaniums were prone to burning up, and all the other bigger repair problems were still in the equipment. Tubes were out, and semiconductors were in. Even though all the TVs were still going to have at least one tube in them for another 40 years.

The semiconductors even started getting into the loudspeakers. And a slick MIT engineer named Amar Bose concocted a way to point speakers backwards, and make it still sound interesting with enough electronic manipulations. No matter that it no longer sounded natural. It was cool, and even had cool white stands to prove it. A weird seed had been planted, and we still deal with it today. Julian Hirsch added ample fertilizer to the seedling. The 901. Psychoacustics.

Eventually, it became a $500 clock radio.

With the little semiconductors crawling everywhere, smaller gear was in, and was literally and figuratively cool. The all-in-one and compacts were taken to new heights, and they were now even showing up in kids bedrooms.

As Vietnam started winding down, the later Japanese invasion came along, and was well timed to accommodate the preceding British one. Rock needed more power and boom, and Pioneer, Sony, Sansui and Onkyo delivered it to the masses. There was no way anyone was playing Hendrix at high volumes on an EL84 Fisher or Scott, I don't care if it was hooked to a Klipschorn (which could nearly blow your eardrums out on a Walkman amp).

It was called then "The Power Wars". And somewhere along the way, for some, how it sounded started to become less important than the race for the lowest THD and highest power crowns.

And those cheap semiconductors were a God-send on that new racetrack. You just couldn't do those things with a tube and have it fit in an average living room.

And these were new and irreversible trends that the old pioneers for the most part could not resist. A few, like Fisher and Marantz, sold out to big Japanese solid state factories. Others, like Scott and Dynaco, just slowly faded away, and died. McIntosh, having long ago attained the "luxury" marque, soldiered on, and started pushing even higher upscale to survive.

And shortly thereafter, or about the same general time, the term "high end" was born, and guys like Bob Carver and Nelson Pass took audio power to truly insane places, without necessarily leaving the music behind. Some overseas people started getting in on it, too. Rotel, NAD, Luxman, Denon, B&O.

Eventually, some of the electronics giants noticed that a thicker faceplate and beefier chassis was more profitable. And Sony ES and a few other mass-market Japanese 'premium' lines were coined. A pound of aluminum and a few ounces of the newest silicon, in exchange for a pound of gold. GM had their Cadillac, Sony now had their ES.

It helped immensely that a new medium had just been invented: the Compact Disk. And all those with their awful sounding Soundesign turntables rejoiced, because now it could merely sound mediocre "forever", without all the skips and clicks.

And all the prior breakthroughs that RCA had once brilliantly engineered into vinyl was quickly tossed aside, just like that. It took another 40 years before the ones and zeros would catch up. Only a handful would keep the torch lit through those early digital dark ages, as the original sins of dither and jitter and filtering error would be revealed and excised from the beast, one by one.

And finally catching that vinyl ghost, at 24-bits, it looked back and saw that its CD horse had died.

Threshold, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and a few others suddenly got popular in certain magazines. Later, little makers like Krell and a few others eventually got in on it, too. These were the new 'pioneers', led primarily by individuals, just like the old days, all trying to be the Fishers, McIntoshes and Marantzes of their era.

But they all wound up competing as to who could drain your wallet the fastest. A big difference. I never once saw an Audio Research amp for sale at Korvettes. No, now you had to go to a salon to even hear one, and put up with someone called Singer.
This was not audio for the faint of bank account.

To convince you to spend dozens of thousands, they would even put down the old classics as something dirty and old, as if Fisher and Scott had never used an oscilloscope or heard real music. Young turks, high on their own sweat. Reinventing the wheel, with an inch thick faceplate.

It wasn't a living room any more, it was a "listening room" And very little room was left for actual living.

People with more money than brains started listening to their equipment, more than the music. Old hobbyist-era news stand standbys such as Audio and Stereo Review were pushed aside for hyperbole-obsessed The Absolute Sound, plying excessively languid, poetic language none of us had ever heard of before.

Is this what it had become? The hobby had died. Audio poetry, and audio porn had arrived. All the fun was gone.

Even the old odds and ends became affected by it. A simple spool of zip cord to hook up the speakers was no longer good enough. No, now your wires had become components. And that old $5 spool of wire now cost $1,000. Even good old Radio Shack had to get in on it, while still remaining affordable to their blue collar customers.

The term "snake oil" suddenly had a new meaning. A box of sand now cost $600. It cost at least $400 to connect your CD player to a preamp. The shorter, the better. Less was more, literally, in dollars. And if you didn't, "all was lost". Designer parts priced 100-fold what was needed.

Only a handful of older speaker designers, who were engineers by nature and mindset, seemed to remain rational through it all.

Little did they know, but another tidal wave was approaching. To wash them all away, just as it had Fisher, Scott and Marantz. And people named Gates, Dell and Jobs were surfing it.

...

Meanwhile, the now ancient classics from David Hafler, Avery Fisher, Hermon Scott, Saul Marantz and Frank McIntosh sat in the closets, collecting dust ... and biding their good time. Because unused tubes, those that survived, never die.

 

[Tirvine]

Some Realistic-branded equipment from the 1970s was very decent sounding gear, and priced for the 'everyman'. It introduced a lot of young ears (including a lot of my friends) to good sound for not too much money. And for that, I am grateful. Mr. Tandy knew how to sell.

I deeply miss the old time Radio Shacks and Lafayettes. Not everyone had the scratch for expensive stuff. But before the 70s, Radio Shack even sold some of the upscale audio brands, too.

I wouldn't call any of the vintage makes "audiophile". Having ridden the hobby from an old broken Philco radio, all the way up to the very pinnacle of the 'high end', I found the old classics from the golden era were right all along. And that the term audiophile has a negative meaning for me in retrospect.

...

And now, lets have some fun with a little walk through audio history to see why ...

By golden era, I mean the earlier time of "Hi-Fi", when the pioneers were transforming the home experience, and half the people doing it were also building their own stuff in kitchens and basements. Mid 1950s to later 1960s. The industry then was dominated by individual men, and not massive corporations. Some were great engineers, others were music lovers who surrounded themselves with great engineers. Marantz, Mac (McIntosh), Fisher, Scott, Dynaco, HK, Sherwood. All good, solid US makes from that golden era that just make very good music, at a range of prices that nearly everyone could afford.

And if you couldn't afford it ready to go, several of them would even sell it to you in a kit. Nothing there to be ashamed of, it was all good stuff.

Even old standbys like RCA were in on it. RCA even pioneered some new records technologies to spur it along. And a hundred other supporting companies making speaker drivers, turntables and all sorts of audio 'gadgets' pitched in, too. It was the age of the hobby. And the people doing it were hobbyists and "enthusiasts".

Aunts and uncles and older relatives would eventually opt for the big furniture Magnavox and Fisher custom consoles, because, well, everything needed to be furniture to them. If they could squeeze their TV sets into them, too, all the better. Admiral and RCA and Zenith were happy to oblige them.

But we kept mixing and matching with our separates, and tweaking it all late at night on our electronics benches in the basements.

But even as we did these things, there was a tidal wave approaching fast. And it was going to wash everything away.

As the 60s wore on, the terms "solid state" and "transistorized" started taking over, suddenly getting plastered all over the equipment. And tubes were increasingly looked down on like some smelly, overweight, overheated, obnoxious-sounding, redheaded stepchild that ate too much, and took up too much space. And it was the space age, after all.

No matter that the early germaniums were prone to burning up, and all the other bigger repair problems were still in the equipment. Tubes were out, and semiconductors were in. Even though all the TVs were still going to have at least one tube in them for another 40 years.

The semiconductors even started getting into the loudspeakers. And a slick MIT engineer named Amar Bose concocted a way to point speakers backwards, and make it still sound interesting with enough electronic manipulations. No matter that it no longer sounded natural. It was cool, and even had cool white stands to prove it. A weird seed had been planted, and we still deal with it today. Julian Hirsch added ample fertilizer to the seedling. The 901. Psychoacustics.

Eventually, it became a $500 clock radio.

With the little semiconductors crawling everywhere, smaller gear was in, and was literally and figuratively cool. The all-in-one and compacts were taken to new heights, and they were now even showing up in kids bedrooms.

As Vietnam started winding down, the later Japanese invasion came along, and was well timed to accommodate the preceding British one. Rock needed more power and boom, and Pioneer, Sony, Sansui and Onkyo delivered it to the masses. There was no way anyone was playing Hendrix at high volumes on an EL84 Fisher or Scott, I don't care if it was hooked to a Klipschorn (which could nearly blow your eardrums out on a Walkman amp).

It was called then "The Power Wars". And somewhere along the way, for some, how it sounded started to become less important than the race for the lowest THD and highest power crowns.

And those cheap semiconductors were a God-send on that new racetrack. You just couldn't do those things with a tube and have it fit in an average living room.

And these were new and irreversible trends that the old pioneers for the most part could not resist. A few, like Fisher and Marantz, sold out to big Japanese solid state factories. Others, like Scott and Dynaco, just slowly faded away, and died. McIntosh, having long ago attained the "luxury" marque, soldiered on, and started pushing even higher upscale to survive.

And shortly thereafter, or about the same general time, the term "high end" was born, and guys like Bob Carver and Nelson Pass took audio power to truly insane places, without necessarily leaving the music behind. Some overseas people started getting in on it, too. Rotel, NAD, Luxman, Denon, B&O.

Eventually, some of the electronics giants noticed that a thicker faceplate and beefier chassis was more profitable. And Sony ES and a few other mass-market Japanese 'premium' lines were coined. A pound of aluminum and a few ounces of the newest silicon, in exchange for a pound of gold. GM had their Cadillac, Sony now had their ES.

It helped immensely that a new medium had just been invented: the Compact Disk. And all those with their awful sounding Soundesign turntables rejoiced, because now it could merely sound mediocre "forever", without all the skips and clicks.

And all the prior breakthroughs that RCA had once brilliantly engineered into vinyl was quickly tossed aside, just like that. It took another 40 years before the ones and zeros would catch up. Only a handful would keep the torch lit through those early digital dark ages, as the original sins of dither and jitter and filtering error would be revealed and excised from the beast, one by one.

And finally catching that vinyl ghost, at 24-bits, it looked back and saw that its CD horse had died.

Threshold, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and a few others suddenly got popular in certain magazines. Later, little makers like Krell and a few others eventually got in on it, too. These were the new 'pioneers', led primarily by individuals, just like the old days, all trying to be the Fishers, McIntoshes and Marantzes of their era.

But they all wound up competing as to who could drain your wallet the fastest. A big difference. I never once saw an Audio Research amp for sale at Korvettes. No, now you had to go to a salon to even hear one, and put up with someone called Singer.
This was not audio for the faint of bank account.

To convince you to spend dozens of thousands, they would even put down the old classics as something dirty and old, as if Fisher and Scott had never used an oscilloscope or heard real music. Young turks, high on their own sweat. Reinventing the wheel, with an inch thick faceplate.

It wasn't a living room any more, it was a "listening room" And very little room was left for actual living.

People with more money than brains started listening to their equipment, more than the music. Old hobbyist-era news stand standbys such as Audio and Stereo Review were pushed aside for hyperbole-obsessed The Absolute Sound, plying excessively languid, poetic language none of us had ever heard of before.

Is this what it had become? The hobby had died. Audio poetry, and audio porn had arrived. All the fun was gone.

Even the old odds and ends became affected by it. A simple spool of zip cord to hook up the speakers was no longer good enough. No, now your wires had become components. And that old $5 spool of wire now cost $1,000. Even good old Radio Shack had to get in on it, while still remaining affordable to their blue collar customers.

The term "snake oil" suddenly had a new meaning. A box of sand now cost $600. It cost at least $400 to connect your CD player to a preamp. The shorter, the better. Less was more, literally, in dollars. And if you didn't, "all was lost". Designer parts priced 100-fold what was needed.

Only a handful of older speaker designers, who were engineers by nature and mindset, seemed to remain rational through it all.

Little did they know, but another tidal wave was approaching. To wash them all away, just as it had Fisher, Scott and Marantz. And people named Gates, Dell and Jobs were surfing it.

...

Meanwhile, the now ancient classics from David Hafler, Avery Fisher, Hermon Scott, Saul Marantz and Frank McIntosh sat in the closets, collecting dust ... and biding their good time. Because unused tubes, those that survived, never die.

What a great trip down memory lane. To this day one of my favorite hi-fi systems was the Heathkit amp and preamp my dad built, mono of course, running the sweet sounds of a Garrard idler and a Pickering cartridge into the folded horn speaker he made.

i loved your mention of audio porn. To me one of the great examples is Krell powering Apogee Scintillas. I have heard a good number of very high end stereos, and my current system, described above, gives them a good run for the money (Saving thousands for records!). I remember in the early seventies running large Advents with a house brand receiver from Pacific Stereo, a TD150, and an M91ed. It was so much fun it made me giggle. So do the Tektons. Oh yeah, a plug for Blue Jeans Cable. Good stuff, fair prices, nice bananas or spades.

 

[ShavingPrimate]

Vintage gear, not coming with Bluetooth or a remote, may limit it's appeal.

Like @Tirvine commented, there are ways to add Bluetooth to vintage gear.

Younger listeners are not really into speakers and they are especially not onto wire!

 

[ShavingPrimate]

There was no way anyone was playing Hendrix at high volumes on an EL84 Fisher or Scott, I don't care if it was hooked to a Klipschorn

IDK? My first audiophile type amp was a Pioneer SA-500 which was rated at 13-WPC. I used it to drive my first pair of Altec A7's, that was back in 1971.

My Scott 222C has tubes in the EL84 family, they can deliver 22-Watts, which is a bit higher than the standard EL84.

With highly sensitive speakers like the A7's, I am finding that 22-Watts is the magic number.

My Class-A 845 based tube amp was rated at 22-Watts and it can take the A7's to about concert levels.

A simple spool of zip cord to hook up the speakers was no longer good enough. No, now your wires had become components. And that old $5 spool of wire now cost $1,000.

I used zip cord most of my life. Now I buy the "good stuff". Meaning 16-gauge RCA speaker wire on a hundred foot roll. That sets me back $20 and change on Amazon...

 

[Columbo]

What a great trip down memory lane. To this day one of my favorite hi-fi systems was the Heathkit amp and preamp my dad built, mono of course, running the sweet sounds of a Garrard idler and a Pickering cartridge into the folded horn speaker he made.

i loved your mention of audio porn. To me one of the great examples is Krell powering Apogee Scintillas. I have heard a good number of very high end stereos, and my current system, described above, gives them a good run for the money (Saving thousands for records!). I remember in the early seventies running large Advents with a house brand receiver from Pacific Stereo, a TD150, and an M91ed. It was so much fun it made me giggle. So do the Tektons. Oh yeah, a plug for Blue Jeans Cable. Good stuff, fair prices, nice bananas or spades.

The law of diminishing returns has always been an overriding factor in this avocation.

A good quality system can, if judiciously matched and selected, reach 90% of the ideal.

It is chasing that last 10% where the cost starts escalating on a J curve. Getting that last 5% often proves an exercise in financial folly for the careless.

Besides system pairing and matching (which can be a lifetime hobby in itself), finding that very special sweet spot, where great music intersects with reasonable cost, is the art of it.

One thing I used to always advise beginners is that the easiest and cheapest way to get great sound for the best price is to buy top-tier equipment, used. It is still just as great sounding when new in most cases, and some fool has already absorbed the steep depreciation cost of breaking it in for you. An occasional scratch and a few specks of dust can save you thousands, and the best equipment is built for decades of use.

 

[Tirvine]

The law of diminishing returns has always been an overriding factor in this avocation.

A good quality system can, if judiciously matched and selected, reach 90% of the ideal.

It is chasing that last 10% where the cost starts escalating on a J curve. Getting that last 5% often proves an exercise in financial folly for the careless.

Besides system pairing and matching (which can be a lifetime hobby in itself), finding that very special sweet spot, where great music intersects with reasonable cost, is the art of it.

One thing I used to always advise beginners is that the easiest and cheapest way to get great sound for the best price is to buy top-tier equipment, used. It is still just as great sounding when new in most cases, and some fool has already absorbed the steep depreciation cost of breaking it in for you. An occasional scratch and a few specks of dust can save you thousands, and the best equipment is built for decades of use.

Spot on. I would add that far to many fail to take the room into account: shape, size, surfaces, and placement.