Vie-Long's Horse-Hair Mane-to-Tail Ratio

[Alum of Potash]

According to my last email from Juan, the 50/50 is slightly firmer than the 35/65; while the 35/65 is slightly firmer than the barber brush ratio of 25/75. Juan also advises that to make the firmness of the natural 35/65 to be similar to the firmness of the faux 50/50 only requires a loft reduction of 2-3mm to the natural hair (knot size being consistent of course).

In rereading my original post, I apparently reversed the mane and tail concentrations by mistake; so let's see if I have this right. We've agreed that the tail hair is firmer than mane hair, and Gifts & Care's site says that its V-L natural horse brushes are 35% mane to 65% tail. Yet Juan says that 50/50 is firmer than 35/65 (mane/tail), and the general consensus is that the V-L's off-the-shelf "natural" option is floppier than the off-the-shelf dyed option. Something does not seem right here. Perhaps V-L's ratio (leaving the pro brush question aside) is actually 35% tail to 65% mane instead?

Rather than talk about shortening the loft height to increase backbone, it might be better to compare, for example, an off-the-shelf 13800 dyed brush to its off-the-shelf 13800 natural equivalent to see how significant the difference is. Again, I think that it might have been better for V-L to have introduced a 50/50 natural mane-to-tail blend from the start, if only for the sake of comparison, if not increasing the backbone.

 

[Rylos]

In rereading my original post, I apparently reversed the mane and tail concentrations by mistake; so let's see if I have this right. We've agreed that the tail hair is firmer than mane hair, and Gifts & Care's site says that its V-L natural horse brushes are 35% mane to 65% tail. Yet Juan says that 50/50 is firmer than 35/65 (mane/tail), and the general consensus is that the V-L's off-the-shelf "natural" option is floppier than the off-the-shelf dyed option. Something does not seem right here. Perhaps V-L's ratio (leaving the pro brush question aside) is actually 35% tail to 65% mane instead?

Rather than talk about shortening the loft height to increase backbone, it might be better to compare, for example, an off-the-shelf 13800 dyed brush to its off-the-shelf 13800 natural equivalent to see how significant the difference is. Again, I think that it might have been better for V-L to have introduced a 50/50 natural mane-to-tail blend from the start, if only for the sake of comparison, if not increasing the backbone.

From talking with mftoms59, I think when Juan told me firmer he was actually meaning a denser knot. I just think something is getting lost in translation. Denser & Firmer I can see both getting confused when translated. So my thoughts are now that the 50/50 is the softer brush due to the higher amount of mane hair but that it also contains a denser knot. Thus the NBH would need it's loft shortened 2-3mm in order for the denseness of the knots to be comparable in face feel.

Those thoughts though could still be quite wrong, but they make sense to me. Hopefully they also make sense to y'all too.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Okay, SharpSpine, if I substitute "denser" for "firmer" in your previous post, this works instead. Yet another variable is thrown in the mix. If the knot dimensions are the same, the 50/50 should be softer (less firm), and to compensate for this, it is denser. Likewise, the natural knot, which is theoretically firmer due to the different hair combination, is less dense. But off-the-shelf, the 35/65 natural knot seems softer than the 50/50, so to "correct" this, the frequent recommendation is to customize the natural knot it by shortening the loft. This still strikes me as something odd at the production level relative to the natural knots.

 

[mftoms59]

The knot density of both Banded and Natural are equal, Tail Hair is slightly thicker and stiffer/pricklier and are for the Backbone, Mane Hair is lighter/softer. 50/50 would have softer tips & less backbone compared to a 35/65 of the same loft, the tips and prickliness of either Hair type does soften a bit with regular use, the density of the knots are equal regardless of the ratio chosen.

I had a Rudy Vey Custom Handle made and a Vie-Long 35/65 20mm knot installed @45mm, this was a 10mm reduction from the original loft. Since the Handle was drilled for a 20mm knot, which was set deeper, the hair at the base of the handle was packed tighter which virtually increased the density of that knot. To visualize take one of your brushes and from the base of the handle go up the knot 3/8" and using a string tighten to equal diameter at the base of that knot. As you will see you'll decrease the area that's between the hairs, restricting flow & increasing density, I hope this clarifies Hair Ratios & Density.

 

[coyotewhisper]

Great discussion about these brushes. How do they lather compared to a badger or boar? Which vendor are you guys using to get your brushes?

 

[Rylos]

The knot density of both Banded and Natural are equal, Tail Hair is slightly thicker and stiffer/pricklier and are for the Backbone, Mane Hair is lighter/softer. 50/50 would have softer tips & less backbone compared to a 35/65 of the same loft, the tips and prickliness of either Hair type does soften a bit with regular use, the density of the knots are equal regardless of the ratio chosen.

I had a Rudy Vey Custom Handle made and a Vie-Long 35/65 20mm knot installed @45mm, this was a 10mm reduction from the original loft. Since the Handle was drilled for a 20mm knot, which was set deeper, the hair at the base of the handle was packed tighter which virtually increased the density of that knot. To visualize take one of your brushes and from the base of the handle go up the knot 3/8" and using a string tighten to equal diameter at the base of that knot. As you will see you'll decrease the area that's between the hairs, restricting flow & increasing density, I hope this clarifies Hair Ratios & Density.

I'm not sure that I have a high enough brush IQ to get one of these brushes. I'm just flat out confused about these little beauties.

 

[Alum of Potash]

To SharpSpine: given the problems and lengths that some are taking to improve on the natural hair blend, I would suggest sticking with the 50/50 banded faux-badger brushes. I love my V-L 13800 and 13071 50/50 banded brushes. I do not love my 12071 35/65 natural hair brush. Were the 12071 to be 50/50 mane-to-tail that might be better. And if mftoms59 is correct in saying that the density is the same, then the 35/65 blend as sold off the shelf, without customization, should be stiffer. But my experience is that the opposite it true, that it is not as stiff or prickly as the 50/50 blend, leading me to suppose that the natural ratio as given might actually be 65 mane to 35 tail. In any case, having to customize the natural knot to make a more usable brush suggests an inherent design-production problem; so I'm sticking with the banded faux-badger 50/50 blends until such a problem is rectified.

And to coyotewhisper: please don't misunderstand me; on the whole, I think Vie-Long brushes are great. IMO, the horse-hair brushes are closer to badgers in effect and sensation. In terms of water absorption vs. shedding, they are perhaps somewhere in between. The Vie-Long 13800 banded, faux-badger horsehair is a big-selling, normal-sized brush, and perhaps a good starting point. You can find it from Bullgoose (USA) or Gifts & Care (Spain). The latter specializes in Vie-Long brushes and has a large selection of them.

 

[mftoms59]

To SharpSpine: given the problems and lengths that some are taking to improve on the natural hair blend, I would suggest sticking with the 50/50 banded faux-badger brushes then. I love my V-L 13800 and 13071 50/50 banded brushes. I do not love my 12071 35/65 natural hair brush. Were the 12071 to be 50/50 mane-to-tail that might be better. And if mftoms59 is correct in saying that the density is the same, then the 35/65 blend as sold off the shelf, without customization, should be stiffer. But my experience is that the opposite it true, that it is not as stiff or prickly as the 50/50 blend, leading me to suppose that the natural ratio as given might actually be 65 mane to 35 tail. In any case, having to customize the natural knot to make a more usable brush suggests that someone at the design end at V-L may be snoozing; so again, I'm sticking with the banded faux-badger 50/50 blends until such a problem is rectified...

Would the lofts of the 50/50 & 35/65 be equal, my experience was definitely the opposite with both types having the same loft & knot size, the Banded backbone was not as stiff as the Natural and had softer tips, but I did feel more prickliness from the Banded on initial use. Vie-Long doesn't make their knots, they purchase them from an outside Manufacturer, a 65/35 is not produced or available, I have asked if they would consider producing a 65/35 ratio in the future. I've also expressed an interest in a Fan or Flat-Top shape becoming available for the Horse Hair Brushes, offering a wider variety.

SharpSpine, I'd also recommend a Banded Brush, base the loft on your lathering preference, bowl or face/ soaps/creams. The 50/50 is a good all-around Hair Ratio and regardless of the ratio chosen the tips will soften a bit with regular use. Your Brush IQ needn't be any higher than when you purchased your first Badger or Boar. You might want to check out the Vie-Long thread in the Ultimate Brush Chronicles, I've covered most of what has been discussed here in the first post of that thread.

I'm glad you all have shown interest in these Brushes and encourage you to pursue your curiosity.

 

[Crixus]

Whew! After trying to follow this thread I need to go lie down. For only having two hair ratios, there seems to be an awful lot of confusion. For any of you more familiar with the VL horse hair, what is the best NATURAL BROWN stock brush that they offer. This would be used As Is, not lowered. Is there a decent non-floppy face lathering brush in the natural brown? And what is that ratio of mane to tail?

 

[Rylos]

Whew! After trying to follow this thread I need to go lie down. For only having two hair ratios, there seems to be an awful lot of confusion. For any of you more familiar with the VL horse hair, what is the best NATURAL BROWN stock brush that they offer. This would be used As Is, not lowered. Is there a decent non-floppy face lathering brush in the natural brown? And what is that ratio of mane to tail?

Natural Brown only comes in the 35%mane/65%tail ratio. To get the least flop of the brushes as is from the manufacturer just find the knot with the lowest listed loft.

 

[Crixus]

Natural Brown only comes in the 35%mane/65%tail ratio. To get the least flop of the brushes as is from the manufacturer just find the knot with the lowest listed loft.

Following that logic, and knowing everyone's tolerance is different, is there a good possibility that the shortest lofted off the shelf natural might be TOO scritchy with the high amount of tail hair? I have never felt the VL hair in any ratio, and although many moons ago I did feel both the mane and tail of a real horse, I wasn't paying attention to their potential as grooming materials. Also, do you know if either the mane or tail hair actually absorbs water into the individual hair? Thanks.

 

[mftoms59]

The explanation is actually backward, Mane is Softer and lighter & Tail is Stiffer & thicker, I had this Backward as well. I made a correction on an earlier thread and re-posted the information here; http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...anish-horse)?p=3568001&highlight=#post3568001

I apologize for misinforming everyone with my previous posts, and have verified the Types & Ratios available, listed in the above link. SharpSpine and I have also PMed each other in reference to our conversations with Juan, who also confirmed the questions with the Vie-Long Factory, which is a few kilometers away from Juan's place of Business.

The knot density of both Banded and Natural are equal, Tail Hair is slightly thicker and stiffer/pricklier and are for the Backbone, Mane Hair is lighter/softer. 50/50 would have softer tips & less backbone compared to a 35/65 of the same loft, the tips and prickliness of either Hair type does soften a bit with regular use, the density of the knots are equal regardless of the ratio chosen.

I had a Rudy Vey Custom Handle made and a Vie-Long 35/65 20mm knot installed @45mm, this was a 10mm reduction from the original loft. Since the Handle was drilled for a 20mm knot, which was set deeper, the hair at the base of the handle was packed tighter which virtually increased the density of that knot. To visualize take one of your brushes and from the base of the handle go up the knot 3/8" and using a string tighten to equal diameter at the base of that knot. As you will see you'll decrease the area that's between the hairs, restricting flow & increasing density, I hope this clarifies Hair Ratios & Density.

Following that logic, and knowing everyone's tolerance is different, is there a good possibility that the shortest lofted off the shelf natural might be TOO scritchy with the high amount of tail hair? I have never felt the VL hair in any ratio, and although many moons ago I did feel both the mane and tail of a real horse, I wasn't paying attention to their potential as grooming materials. Also, do you know if either the mane or tail hair actually absorbs water into the individual hair? Thanks.

As I said in the above two posts the Natural Brown 35/65 would be stiffer, more backbone than a 50/50 with the same specs. If your looking for a Face Lathering Brush with less scritch that isn't Floppy, it would have to be in the 50/50 Ratio, especially if you use any pressure when face lathering. Loft and scritch is a matter of personal preference and is no harder to figure out than when you bought your first Shaving Brush, Badger or Boar. No matter what type of Brush Hair you choose, it's always a matter of trial and error.

If you like a softer Badger, go with the 50/50, most of the lofts are at least 52-55mm, so if your going to face lather at that loft you might consider a 23mm knot. If you like Pure or Black Badger type scritch try the Natural Brown Horse Hair. The Horse hair doesn't absorb water so much as stores it in the Brush, which is why it will dry usually within 24 hours, depending on room temperature and humidity.

 

[Crixus]

If you like Pure or Black Badger type scritch try the Natural Brown Horse Hair.

This tells me a lot right here. My preference is a medium density 44-45mm loft of Simpson best badger--such as the Berkeley. I don't want the scritch that probably comes with the Natural Brown Horse Hair, and I won't buy artificially banded brushes, so I don't think VL horse will even be an experiment for me at this juncture. Thanks for your replies.

 

[Wil Dorenbos]

Whew! After trying to follow this thread I need to go lie down. For only having two hair ratios, there seems to be an awful lot of confusion. For any of you more familiar with the VL horse hair, what is the best NATURAL BROWN stock brush that they offer. This would be used As Is, not lowered. Is there a decent non-floppy face lathering brush in the natural brown? And what is that ratio of mane to tail?

13800. 35/65

 

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

I bought one and after a month couldn’t stand how floppy it had become. Too high a loft for me - 50 mm seems to be my preference.