I had tried this on occasion some time ago but eventually abandoned the technique. It may have caused some artifacts along the edge so I discontinued my attempts with spine-leading strokes…
Touch-Ups vs Rehoning
- Thread starter JPO
- Start date
I've been thinking about what @JPO said and it reminds me of a conversation I had with my nephew a while back about sharpening and honing. He made a good point, I think: "you can always go back another step [in the progression] but the longer you wait the more steps you have to go back." The point being, you can correct the edge with a strop, until you can't, etc. on down the line.
I've taken that a little further on my own, to where I like to try to stay ahead of the damage. I generally strop between passes, 20 or 30 strokes. Some people have suggested that's unnecessary but I don't really care. It works for me and since I started doing that my edges last a lot longer.
I've tried just doing touchups on a finisher when needed and I've never been as happy with the results as I am if I go back to 8k or 4k first. Nowadays I will sometimes just do a touchup on the finisher but I do it when the edge starts to lose that "fresh off the stones" feel, so a few shaves, rather than waiting until the performance has dropped off.
Also, to what @Gamma said, my blades wear unevenly. My first two passes mostly utilize the front third of the blade and I only use the heel on ATG and cleanup. So going coarser to start helps get everything on an even keel again.
And, sometimes I go back to the 1.5k and clean up the bevel because I'm better at bevel setting now than I was a couple years ago.
I've taken that a little further on my own, to where I like to try to stay ahead of the damage. I generally strop between passes, 20 or 30 strokes. Some people have suggested that's unnecessary but I don't really care. It works for me and since I started doing that my edges last a lot longer.
I've tried just doing touchups on a finisher when needed and I've never been as happy with the results as I am if I go back to 8k or 4k first. Nowadays I will sometimes just do a touchup on the finisher but I do it when the edge starts to lose that "fresh off the stones" feel, so a few shaves, rather than waiting until the performance has dropped off.
Also, to what @Gamma said, my blades wear unevenly. My first two passes mostly utilize the front third of the blade and I only use the heel on ATG and cleanup. So going coarser to start helps get everything on an even keel again.
And, sometimes I go back to the 1.5k and clean up the bevel because I'm better at bevel setting now than I was a couple years ago.
- Thread starter
- #23
I also strop between passes.
If I do a touch-up I will also see if it helps to strop the edge good before I go to a stone, just to align the edge as much as possible to avoid some of the chips from developing.
I will do the same if I do some light balsa stropping.
Previously I just picked up a razor and honed it. It did not make sense to strop before I honed.
Not sure about a magic formula. I usually try touching up with a finishing stone and if this doesn't work, go back to 8k and sometime even 4k.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I never have to re-hone. I never have to touch up the edge. My edges stay sharp. It's not magic. It's balsa.
Back in the 40s/50s, barbers used to shave with razors for a couple few weeks then send them out to be honed. Between honing sessions, those edges saw a lot of faces and there were mostly all shaved on 'touch ups'. They weren't struggling to do their jobs, the process worked well for them. For the most part those barbers were using the same blades, hones, tools, etc that we do today.
In between honings they used barber hones, compounds on all sorts of substrates, finishing hones, etc. It was, and still is, a very simple concept and process that can work very well. I've had edges go well over 100 shaves on leather alone numerous times. Pasted edges and barber hone only razors have gone much longer.
Waiting too long to touch up will bring poor results. Trying to touch up a blade that wasn't honed so very well to begin with is also liable to return a negative experience.
Worrying about wear is futile, the edge will wear. Constant honing or sharpening on abrasives doesn't prevent wear. They're just different approaches to managing/correcting the wear.
In between honings they used barber hones, compounds on all sorts of substrates, finishing hones, etc. It was, and still is, a very simple concept and process that can work very well. I've had edges go well over 100 shaves on leather alone numerous times. Pasted edges and barber hone only razors have gone much longer.
Waiting too long to touch up will bring poor results. Trying to touch up a blade that wasn't honed so very well to begin with is also liable to return a negative experience.
Worrying about wear is futile, the edge will wear. Constant honing or sharpening on abrasives doesn't prevent wear. They're just different approaches to managing/correcting the wear.
I don’t do touch-ups, never have, I reset the bevel on everything. I like to keep things simple.
- Thread starter
- #28
I agree with all this. However, i don't need to send my razors out for rehoning and i am not a barber. If i did, i would probably try to stretch the time between rehoning as much as possible.
If we drop back to say 2k or 4k. Does the small amount of material we are removing really matter?
How much material would you loose if you rehoned a razor starting from a 2k-4k stone?
If you only have one razor, and shave every day, and rehone the razor after 30 shaves, you need to rehone the blade 12 times per year.
I am 44, and i have allot more then one razor, and i really don't care much about the amount of steel left on my razors when i am gone.
If we use the numbers i the table, you should be able get 200 years of use on a single razor, if you used only one every day.
The amount of material removed would be roughly 5 mm (0.197 in).
Even if this table had an error of 50%, you would still have a at least 100 years of useful life, even on a small 5/8 razor.
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Professional barbers took very good care of their tools, when those investments ceased to function as desired, the tools get re-tooled or replaced. The razor has to work according to plan. Costs and down-time are factored into the scheme of things. Assuming things to support a bias by applying an amateur's mindset fails miserably here - if a barber handled business how you described they would lose their customers.
Wear does add up, the extent of wear depends on the work that needed to be done. So whether or not it matters depends on unknowns. Assuming it doesn't matter is an ignorant position. honing isn't linear. Sometimes I spend a lot of time on a 3k, 4k, or 5k, possibly more than I spend on a 1k. Calculating what 'matters' is also somewhat subjective and proportional to the blade and grind. Taking 1/8" off a half hollow 5/8 alters the blade significantly. It can still function but it is not what was desired. Assuming people bought razors based on width and grind, that can't be overlooked. A 5/8 full hollow that has had 1/8" ground off will need the stabilizer ground back, if it has one, and if it is etched then the lettering will look wonky. While I can make that blade shave, it's not what I want to shave with.
See above -if you need two passes on each stone, not a lot, if you need to remove more then, well, then there's more wear. I have put a lot of wear on blades during mid-range. Hand made objects, like straight razors, come with faults that need to be overcome and grinding past them is often the only way.
Assuming someone shaves every day - it's 11.7 times actually. How does one spell assume? I have razors that get honed every week though. I had a W&B that got honed every day for 90 days....
Don't know who made that table but, honestly, it's a joke, the error margin is wide enough to drive a truck though. There is so much wrong there that that I don't have the time, space or desire to pick it apart. I suppose the calculations could be true to some degree under certain circumstances, possibly. But, it's like saying you only need 1 CC of mustard per hot dog because someone once used 1 cc of mustard on a hot dog. It seems more like a data pile assembled to support a confirmation bias. While it is true that the amount of steel removed to do a touch up or a rehone can be minimal, it is also true that it won't always be minimal. I think we've all seen blades honed 'to death' that are way less than 100 yrs old. I've also seen blades that are 200 yr old and seemingly unworn.
Oddly though, none of any of that has anything at all to do with my previous post.
Me, personally, I don't care about wear. I also don't care what someone else thinks about wear. While I'm here I'll also point out that I don't care who agrees with me or not.
If a blade gets too narrow or too worn I'll get rid of it. I hone a lot, have been for a long time, I have gone through a lot of blades, when they get to 'a point' - I move on.
When I referenced wear in my last post, I was not taking about avoiding wear or being afraid of it. And I wasn't only referencing hone wear, the blade wears from shaving use and that's part of the mix too. My point, in case it was missed, is that the blade will wear from shaving and will need to be honed; and until it needs to be honed it doesn't need to be honed. Choosing to maintain the blade without honing is an established working solution that has been part of the landscape for hundreds of years. Some people just don't want to hone, their choice has nothing to do with wear on the blade. Touching up and honing both cause wear... it's the same thing really - it's just two ways of managing the same situation.
There are a lot of people using straights. Some don't hone at all and some of them don't touch-up either. Some users who do hone also like to touch up when needed and it works well for them. And there are those that don't like to touch up and choose to always re-hone, and that works well for them. Neither way is superior, or more correct. All ways work just fine when the tasks at hand are handled correctly.
If I'm testing a stone I go back to 8k.
If I'm just re-edging a razor; and I know the last edge was good, I just go to the new finisher...
But I hone after most shaves (not every shave anymore; but I'd say maybe 50% of the time), so I don't ever really have 20+ shaves worth of wear to repair.
It started as a habit because I was collecting and buying hones at a rate of several a month for years and always had something new to try.
Now it's more that I don't shave every day any longer; so I can't recall the finish on my razor and will be like "I'm in the mood for a Thuri edge today" Or "I'm in the mood for an Ark edge today"... and it's a matter of a few seconds to quickly refinish a razor and strop before shaving.
I used to own over a thousand razors... Now I'd guess it's around 50... But most are sets or other collectors pieces I don't shave with. I've got less than 20 that are user razors... and of those... I probably keep a couple out in easy reach... and wind up using one of those for 99% of my shaves. I've never put any amount of wear on a razor just maintaining it... in 15+ years... most of which was daily shaving. I've worn razors removing chips; fixing grind issues and egregiously bad honing.... but just keeping a user razor sharp... I've probably touched up some razors a hundred or more times and there's no noticeable wear as a consequence... This assumes the "brand new" razor spinewear is already applied... the first honing on a brand spanking new razor shows up a lot; of course... but after that, nothing for ages.
I've had plenty of razors worn down to nubs out of barbers kits... but is that because they chipped and restored the razors... or because they used extremely aggressive (<3k in some cases) "barbers hones" on a regular basis... maybe several times a day? Probably one or both of those.
If I'm just re-edging a razor; and I know the last edge was good, I just go to the new finisher...
But I hone after most shaves (not every shave anymore; but I'd say maybe 50% of the time), so I don't ever really have 20+ shaves worth of wear to repair.
It started as a habit because I was collecting and buying hones at a rate of several a month for years and always had something new to try.
Now it's more that I don't shave every day any longer; so I can't recall the finish on my razor and will be like "I'm in the mood for a Thuri edge today" Or "I'm in the mood for an Ark edge today"... and it's a matter of a few seconds to quickly refinish a razor and strop before shaving.
I used to own over a thousand razors... Now I'd guess it's around 50... But most are sets or other collectors pieces I don't shave with. I've got less than 20 that are user razors... and of those... I probably keep a couple out in easy reach... and wind up using one of those for 99% of my shaves. I've never put any amount of wear on a razor just maintaining it... in 15+ years... most of which was daily shaving. I've worn razors removing chips; fixing grind issues and egregiously bad honing.... but just keeping a user razor sharp... I've probably touched up some razors a hundred or more times and there's no noticeable wear as a consequence... This assumes the "brand new" razor spinewear is already applied... the first honing on a brand spanking new razor shows up a lot; of course... but after that, nothing for ages.
I've had plenty of razors worn down to nubs out of barbers kits... but is that because they chipped and restored the razors... or because they used extremely aggressive (<3k in some cases) "barbers hones" on a regular basis... maybe several times a day? Probably one or both of those.
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- Thread starter
- #31
I am not sure how we ended up here. However, I don't think our opinions are that far apart.
Your closing remarks in your youtube video "How to Hone a Straight Razor The Touch Up" gives a good summary, and I don't disagree with the content at all.
Having a discussion with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while you realise the pig likes it
(I am the pig by the way)
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Yes, really.
I bought the microscope to do stacked imaging microphotography, not razor honing.
Had you asked about that instead of trying to be cute, You would have learned something.
Instead you chose to be aggravating. How cute.
Turns out I hate using the microscopy software and cleaning up the artifacts, so I don't use it much.
I have used the scope for edge inspection, and use it once in a blue moon to do some stone comparisons. In reality, I've imaged 100x more nickels, stones, and other small things than razors.
I learned to hone without a scope, as millions have. If I never got one, it would not impact my honing. I didn't get the BHM for about 10 yr after learning to hone. I' have mentioned it on this board numerous times, recently actually. I rarely ever publish a microscope photo of anything connected to honing though; without a lot of context it's just a waste of time. The images on my website are probably 8 yr old now. I had the thing, and it cost a few $$, so I used it to create content. Since then, nada.
So - about the keyboard warrior comment...
Reading is fundamental. RIF. I wrote that no one needs a scope to hone. That's true. No one needs a commercial mixer to make bread but I had one of them also.
Need vs want, it's important to read and understand what people are saying/writing/meaning. Taking things out of context and trying to be funny at someone's expense is pitiful. Congrats.
Lemme know if there's any more ignorance I can clear up. I'm always willing to shed light on anyone's darkness.
- Thread starter
- #34
The intention of this thread was just to spark a discussion around this subject.
I still find the so-called barber hone, and the light touch-up good idea. I just need to figure out what works best.
I have a fresh coticule edge I am planning to give 5-10 light laps on a fine coticule before each shave. I was planning to use it dry, just to see how/if it works.
I will rehone it and do the same with some type of lubrication.
I might try doing this with a slate, or something too.
I am sure someone else have tried this.
I still find the so-called barber hone, and the light touch-up good idea. I just need to figure out what works best.
I have a fresh coticule edge I am planning to give 5-10 light laps on a fine coticule before each shave. I was planning to use it dry, just to see how/if it works.
I will rehone it and do the same with some type of lubrication.
I might try doing this with a slate, or something too.
I am sure someone else have tried this.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
There are some interesting ideas in this thread, but I think maybe there’s little useful specific information, maybe a ‘Can’t see the forest for the trees’ kind of thing.
First of all, if a razor is losing metal out of the apex after one shave or incurring significant deformation after one shave, then maybe the razor is not performing ideally or as intended by the maker. The things that I think of in cases where I can see such edge shenanigans at the magnifications available to me (7-14x), are too shallow a bevel angle, wonky temper, or poor steel. I’ve observed a lot of edges over the years at 7-14x, and all razors are not the same. Some don’t even make it off fine grain hones without edge artifacts, much less shaving. Others will present a straight, even edge after many shaves. Temper and steel we can’t do anything about, but the standard technique for dealing with a non-durable or failing edge is to increase the bevel angle.
So this raises an obvious idea, Razor A with 20 shaves on it may need to be treated differently than razor B with 20 shaves on it, and never mind that the stones/abrasives that you use will make a large difference too.
How far I go back to ‘re-edge’ a razor of course depends on what the edge looks like, not how many shaves it has on it. Razor A with 20 shaves on it may not look like razor B with 20 shaves on it. How far back also depends on how much time I want to invest - going back in the progression a bit more may well be faster than slugging it out on the finisher. You get a feel for this after you’ve been honing for a while.
Bottom line for re-edging a razor is to look at it, it will tell you what you need to do. Also IMHO, if steel is falling out of your edges and contaminating your fabric so to cause scratches, then simply honing to remove the chips and deformation isn’t making anything better.
First of all, if a razor is losing metal out of the apex after one shave or incurring significant deformation after one shave, then maybe the razor is not performing ideally or as intended by the maker. The things that I think of in cases where I can see such edge shenanigans at the magnifications available to me (7-14x), are too shallow a bevel angle, wonky temper, or poor steel. I’ve observed a lot of edges over the years at 7-14x, and all razors are not the same. Some don’t even make it off fine grain hones without edge artifacts, much less shaving. Others will present a straight, even edge after many shaves. Temper and steel we can’t do anything about, but the standard technique for dealing with a non-durable or failing edge is to increase the bevel angle.
So this raises an obvious idea, Razor A with 20 shaves on it may need to be treated differently than razor B with 20 shaves on it, and never mind that the stones/abrasives that you use will make a large difference too.
How far I go back to ‘re-edge’ a razor of course depends on what the edge looks like, not how many shaves it has on it. Razor A with 20 shaves on it may not look like razor B with 20 shaves on it. How far back also depends on how much time I want to invest - going back in the progression a bit more may well be faster than slugging it out on the finisher. You get a feel for this after you’ve been honing for a while.
Bottom line for re-edging a razor is to look at it, it will tell you what you need to do. Also IMHO, if steel is falling out of your edges and contaminating your fabric so to cause scratches, then simply honing to remove the chips and deformation isn’t making anything better.
- Thread starter
- #36
Maybe I am just trying to recreate the first shave after the razor have been honed. I have a few razor I would consider as consumables, and some nicer ones that don't see the stones that often.
I am not trying to say that maintaining razors needs to be allot of work. I have a Filly 14 that has over 40 shaves on the edge. It can probably stand allot more shaves before anything needs to be done.
Not everyone likes honing, and/or allot of experimentation.
It also seems like razors like to be used regularly to perform uptimum. I have no idea why a blade that has been laying around for a while perform slightly better after a few shaves.
@JPO
Based on the 1st sentence of the last post it sounds like the question is:
“How do you best preserve the original condition of the razor?”
This is a tough question because we’re never really sure how that edge was made initially assuming it was a nice factory edge.
Also as the dimensions of the razor decreases the way it responds during the shave changes.
Hopefully I’m understanding your concern without taking it out of context.
Based on the 1st sentence of the last post it sounds like the question is:
“How do you best preserve the original condition of the razor?”
This is a tough question because we’re never really sure how that edge was made initially assuming it was a nice factory edge.
Also as the dimensions of the razor decreases the way it responds during the shave changes.
Hopefully I’m understanding your concern without taking it out of context.
- Thread starter
- #38
I might have drifted off topic a little.
I think the main point I was trying to make in my first post is that I got slightly better and more consistent results if I took a few steps back, and did more of a rehone then a touch-up.
For me that usually involves going back to 4-6k if synthetic stones are used. With coticules it just means I start with some slurry.
I also think that the amount of wear is insignificant, especially if you have a few razor to rotate between.
This mention of bits of steel adding to the polishing effect brings me back to when I worked at a company that made steel washers for nuts and bolts. They had a large 55 gallon drum set on a vibratory that ran constantly, and just dumped the freshly stamped washers in it to deburr the rough edges. All different sizes. Every few hours a guy would just scoop out the finished ones.
No water or any other media. Just steel washers rubbing against steel washers.
My advice here is to keep your linen clean!
~doug~
