Thuringian (Escher Specifically) Colors performance/preferences?

[HoneThis]

Howdy and Happy Fourth of July!

I know that this has probably been discussed at some point on the forum, but I couldn’t find a good thread that answered my questions. I know that some people (the same who will tell you that different coticule layers all perform the same) think that the color grading system that Escher and Co. utilized was just marketing, but it’s scientifically proven that the opposite is true. The different types/colors do yield different results/characteristics. Some may be more pronounced than others, but it’s definitely a thing. Anyone who’s used two vastly different Thuringians can tell you that the feel alone is worlds apart.

Personally, I’ve only owned a what I believe was Dark Blue? SR Droescher Barber Size Box kit and my current Thuringian, a Yellow-Green Escher Barber’s Delight. A massive difference in the feedback, speed, and performance in my opinion. I’m not sure that it was a dark blue (the SRD), but it was that or green and had a light green slurry stone.

For those of you who have used many or all of the Escher color grades, which did you prefer? Which is the most uncommon, and which is most common? If you could choose only one to use for the remainder of your life, which color is it?

Also, the topic of slurry stones. Is it not beneficial to use a stone that is not actually matching in color to the hone itself, but rather one that is lighter if possible. Like a yellow green slurry stone on a Blue/Blue Green, Dark Blue, or even Black Thuringian?

I’m also curious as to how others are utilizing/managing slurry during the finishing process. Does anyone progressively thin down (or thicken) the slurry as they approach completion? Does anyone cut out the slurry stone altogether and just use whatever is kicked up by the razor being honed on water only?

I’m just curious about this stuff. Thanks!

 

[JPO]

Howdy and Happy Fourth of July!

I know that this has probably been discussed at some point on the forum, but I couldn’t find a good thread that answered my questions. I know that some people (the same who will tell you that different coticule layers all perform the same) think that the color grading system that Escher and Co. utilized was just marketing, but it’s scientifically proven that the opposite is true. The different types/colors do yield different results/characteristics. Some may be more pronounced than others, but it’s definitely a thing. Anyone who’s used two vastly different Thuringians can tell you that the feel alone is worlds apart.

Personally, I’ve only owned a what I believe was Dark Blue? SR Droescher Barber Size Box kit and my current Thuringian, a Yellow-Green Escher Barber’s Delight. A massive difference in the feedback, speed, and performance in my opinion. I’m not sure that it was a dark blue (the SRD), but it was that or green and had a light green slurry stone.

For those of you who have used many or all of the Escher color grades, which did you prefer? Which is the most uncommon, and which is most common? If you could choose only one to use for the remainder of your life, which color is it?

Also, the topic of slurry stones. Is it not beneficial to use a stone that is not actually matching in color to the hone itself, but rather one that is lighter if possible. Like a yellow green slurry stone on a Blue/Blue Green, Dark Blue, or even Black Thuringian?

I’m also curious as to how others are utilizing/managing slurry during the finishing process. Does anyone progressively thin down (or thicken) the slurry as they approach completion? Does anyone cut out the slurry stone altogether and just use whatever is kicked up by the razor being honed on water only?

I’m just curious about this stuff. Thanks!

I only have one slate. I get the best performance if I use it without slurry after an 8k or 12k.
The small amount slurry released from the stone is enough when used this way.

 

[cotedupy]

My 2c...

In in honing use - the softer, lighter coloured stones feel nicer.

In terms of sharpness - if you had some kind of clever instrument to test it, then I suspect the harder, darker coloured stones would probably produce an ultimately keener edge.

In terms of shaving - you're not going to be able to tell the difference. They're not even near disparate enough to worry about.

 

[Empire straights]

I like my light green much better than my blue but it's purely on feed back and ease of using the slurry on other stones

 

[rideon66]

My 2c...

In in honing use - the softer, lighter coloured stones feel nicer.

In terms of sharpness - if you had some kind of clever instrument to test it, then I suspect the harder, darker coloured stones would probably produce an ultimately keener edge.

In terms of shaving - you're not going to be able to tell the difference. They're not even near disparate enough to worry about.

It may just be that mine were at the very high end, but my old Droescher which I believe was cut opposite was really hard and not my favorite. My light green and barber delight style stones where much nicer. It was like honing on one of those ultra hard monolith stones and finishing on water only vs a ultra hard fine coticule. The honing was much nicer, but the shave was also more skin friendly. Could just be my face and skin too though.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Color doesn't really change the edge in my experience. Some guys have taken scope shots and tried to argue a particle size difference based on color; but I take that with a grain of salt. I've done extensive scoping of slurry particles from all manner of natural stones. I've had Coticules with 20+ micron garnets and I've had ones that don't have anything over 1 micron. All my Thuri's are sub micron particles. If there is a particle size difference in Thuri's; it's so small it would be at the scale that usually the larger particle sizes would make a better hone. Hone surface shots; showing friable detail on the stones surface is pretty meaningless to compare the stone's effective grit (which was how the pictures were framed). Basically, someone had their hypothesis (blue is coarser) and set out to prove it with images... and guess what they "proved"?


Color also doesn't directly translate to softness. Fuchs/Fox deliberately picked stones that were LG/YG and soft... so the fact that there are a lot of those out there kind of swings those colors to "softer" on average... but there are equally soft DB and some pretty hard YG out there too.

Like most people, I like the feedback of the softer ones better... but all Thuris feel really good under a razor.


Honestly the main advantage of the green Thuris used to be (and may still be) that there are less (less, not none) frauds out there. Every black or blue stone and most oil-crusted stones on eBay got sold as "German razor hone" or "Escher" for years... and REALLY tanked the reputation of DB thuri's... because guys were honing on everything from BBW to vermont slate to Yellow lake to oil-soaked India and thinking they had Eschers.


When I couldn't afford as many stones and needed the money from flipping them to fund collecting them... I didn't keep any green Thuris. I kept and used DB's and sold all the greenies. Now that I don't really buy or sell much... and after thinning out my collection to the "keepers" that were selected more for looks and rarity... almost all of my collection are green. I think that speaks pretty exactly to my experience with the well over a hundred Thuringians I've owned. Peoples preference for colors outside of DB aren't baseless (and make no mistake, there's an OVERWHELMING preference for other colors... they sell for easily 2x as much as DB ones), but it's generally about other elements than the actual resulting edge.



As for rarity?

Doorsch if he's still active anywhere could probably speak to the most uncommon, but my experience... It's Blue Green

DB is the most common, followed by YG/LG (about equal), then a pretty big drop off then BG.


As for slurry?

Does anyone cut out the slurry stone altogether and just use whatever is kicked up by the razor being honed on water only?

Me.

I don't bother slurrying except sometimes right after lapping to help polish up the stone surface faster. Thuri's don't really need it. But in general, they slurry easy enough and are consistent enough you don't really need to "match up" slurry stones like you do with hard Jnats/etc. Don't really matter where the slurry is coming from, it all works the same.
Functionally, you don't really need to thin it down. I don't let it fully dry out... but I do recall one guy who did (and finished dry honing on the stone). I never tried that... but Thuri's are pretty darned forgiving... I don't know if you could find a way to hone "wrong" on them. Some guys who use slurry like to finish on a few clean water strokes, some don't. Honestly, they're a lot like high quality Jnats... everyone has an opinion on exactly how to get the "best" edge... but everyone gets a great edge.

 

[SliceOfLife]

To expand on color:

Based on my numbers/experience, I'd say 1/10 of DB are "unusually soft (think Fuchs Extra soft 44)" vs maybe 1/5 of YG and 1/3 of LG. I haven't had enough BG to make a general estimate, but I've had 1 BG (out of maybe 8?) that was unusually soft. That said, DB comprise the most "typical but not crazy soft" Thuri's, along with LG... with YG tending to be very soft or very hard, and less often in the middle.

That's all to say it's a lot more complicated then just "Buy a yellow Thuri and you'll get a soft one". Though it does improve your chances if you are looking for a super soft... but frankly... if you're buying a yellow Thuri and want a soft one... just hold out for a boxed Fuchs 044 and know you're getting a soft one... They tend to actually sell for LESS than y/g Eschers.

Interestingly, the Barbers delight/Two tone Eschers I've had... neither side is ultra-soft... Actually tending to be in the fairly avg softness realm for Thuris... most similar to a harder LG. Certainly they'd feel soft if you're comparing to a hard DB or a black... but a SOFT Thuri is really something else. Fuchs 044's and similar softness Thuris feel almost fuzzy. Like imagine if a king red brick (800 grit?) was made with no abrasive so it didn't feel coarse/grabby, but kept exactly that "trying to suck you in" texture.

 

[Gamma]

Have never seen slurry on an Escher do anything for or against the edge. And it's not because I haven't looked either. Literally zero signs of actual edge improvement when using slurry on an Escher. Not surprising really, given the geology, but that's another story.
To me, the instructions for making a 'slime' were to ensure a clean surface with good nap for honing. Not edge improvement.

There was a study long ago claiming particle size differences in lighter Eschers - Hatzicho would know which book/paper I am referring to. I had a thin section cut from a piece of Escher and glass mounted - on my scope what I saw paralleled what that study stated for those types... can't remember numbers. I usually view in reflected bright field mode, but I see more in dark field sometimes. With that sample I put a lot of time in. IME, looking at slurry under a cover slip doesn't add more to the equation, just makes for more confusion. My take on all of it was that the color thing was fairly irrelevant.

IMO, the entire color thing with Eschers is based more in marketing than anything else. Certainly people will choose one color or 'feel' over another based on preference but qualifying edge improvement from one color over another, objectively, not seeing it.
People will swear by one, lets say Y/G - 'they're the best' you'll read over and over by the old timers on another platform.
I've had a number of y/g Eschers. Loads of Blue Greens and Dk Blues too.
I always like the B/G best for the feel - mine were always a bit harder and crisp. The YG were often a bit softer. Hardest Escher for me was an un-labeled stone I would call Light Green.

I like Eschers because they are brain dead easy to use and they deliver a smooth shave when the edge is prepped right.
But - to be honest I am not all that impressed with them as a finisher in an absolute sense. A translucent Ark makes a better edge for me. In fact I'd use an Escher after a Coticule to prep for a Trans Ark.
I hardly ever use my Escher; pretty sure it's an unboxed Barber's Gem and I'd say the color is Y/G. It's a good stone, sure, just not my Jam. I think the performance hype on Eschers is way overblown, to be honest. Great history though, great labels too. And they always work, and you really can't muff it up.... so there's that. But my 'bees knees' edges don't come off Eschers.