Thinking of Shaptons lately...

[JPO]

If someone wants to believe a typical legit worn 400x Atoma is leaving issues on their stones which is leaving issues on their razors, fine by me.

Just to be clear, I am now showing the effects of using atoma plates that are quite new and aggressive.
I don't have any issues if I use a worn dmt 600 plate.
It is much easier to have a discussion if you actually read what you respond to, and don't tell me what I mean. It's all there in my posts.
I would also assume that a worn 400 plate can be used without any issues.
It is probably quite common for people to buy these for lapping, and breaking them in might take some time. So, dressing the surface after coarse lapping might be beneficial on some hard finishers.

I am aware that images can be used to support any narrative. However, the feedback from the stone is telling me that the stone was smoother on the 1200 grit finished stone.

 

[Gamma]

Unless an Admin or Moderator says otherwise, I'll have and share whatever opinions I feel are suitable.
I did read what you wrote previously, and again now. No change in my POV.

Photos of Jackalopes don't prove their existence.
But of course though, there will be people who believe in them.

Just for funzies, this afternoon I polished my 10k down to 4k with w/d. Yep, feels polished.
But the cutting/honing is the same as it was. These stones are designed to wear with use, and they wear fairly easily and rapidly. That's why people refer to them as 'fast'.
Then I lapped it down with the 1200 plate on it, same. Tried a sheet of worn 600x w/d just because it was there - same. Finished up with newish 400x, same.
But if I press on the 400x plate hard enough, and hone with more pressure on the 10k than normal - I bet the striations will be whacked. In other words, if I want there to be an issue I can create one.
I have no need to create one though.
I've honed on hard Jnats with felt cracks in them without having striation issues on my bevels. Just two days ago actually. A lot of people have done the same without bevel issues.
Issues caused by some teensy weensy lil marks in a synth waterstone...? lol... ok.

But if someone wants to find an issue there, fine by me.

 

[rhgg2]

The situation is quite interesting. There are visible scratches in the surface of the 6k stone from the box fresh 1200. With the 400 plate there are no visible scratches. Nonetheless, for me, it hones better with the 1200. It is notable that the feedback feels different and slicker. It could be I have an innate sympatico for this feedback such that I hone more accurately. A more experienced honer would intuitively adapt to a range of different feedback sensations, but I do not yet have that intuition.

 

[Steve56]

There are visible scratches in the surface of the 6k stone from the box fresh 1200. With the 400 plate there are no visible scratches.

This is normal.

Nonetheless, for me, it hones better with the 1200.

What do you mean by better? Just curious.

 

[JPO]

The situation is quite interesting. There are visible scratches in the surface of the 6k stone from the box fresh 1200. With the 400 plate there are no visible scratches. Nonetheless, for me, it hones better with the 1200. It is notable that the feedback feels different and slicker. It could be I have an innate sympatico for this feedback such that I hone more accurately. A more experienced honer would intuitively adapt to a range of different feedback sensations, but I do not yet have that intuition.

Are you using this 6k as a starting point when you hone, or do you use something else before?
If I do a touchup, and the bevel already have a polish, this 6k can feel a little strange. I get more resistance on the stone. If I do a few laps on the 3k first, the feedback is different.
In my test I removed the 3k striations in only 15 passes on the 6k. The resistance will increase as you spend more time on the stone.
If you spend more time then needed on the stone, you are working against your self.
To me the 6k feels a little softer then both the 3k and the 10k. It can also feel a little gummy if I don't lap the surface and if I use it as a starting point. To me it also feels better with harder steel. My CV Heljestrand felt better then my Bengall. Less resistance was felt with the Heljestrand razor.
I am not even sure if my Rock Star 10k is similar to your 10k gs. It is harder then both my 8k, 3k and 6k.

 

[JPO]

The situation is quite interesting. There are visible scratches in the surface of the 6k stone from the box fresh 1200. With the 400 plate there are no visible scratches. Nonetheless, for me, it hones better with the 1200. It is notable that the feedback feels different and slicker. It could be I have an innate sympatico for this feedback such that I hone more accurately. A more experienced honer would intuitively adapt to a range of different feedback sensations, but I do not yet have that intuition.

Just trust your own observations and do what feels right for you.

The lions needs to be feed. I think I will move into the herd for a while.
Sometimes it pays to put on your stripes

 

[rhgg2]

What do you mean by better? Just curious.

The feedback feels cleaner and it seems to give a nicer looking bevel. Actually this is more noticeable with the 10k than the 6k. Having done a shave test there is no great difference in how it shaves, but I suspect it will have better longevity. This is a moot point since the odds of any of my edges getting dull before I rehoned them is pretty much zero!

Are you using this 6k as a starting point when you hone, or do you use something else before?

Generally I go from 3k or 1k->3k.

If you spend more time then needed on the stone, you are working against your self.
To me the 6k feels a little softer then both the 3k and the 10k. It can also feel a little gummy if I don't lap the surface and if I use it as a starting point.

Yes, I don't love how the 6k feels. Gummy is exactly how I would describe it and the reason I lap it before every use. Sometimes I do 3k->10k just to avoid using the 6k.

To me it also feels better with harder steel. My CV Heljestrand felt better then my Bengall. Less resistance was felt with the Heljestrand razor.

Interesting, I shall try comparing my Sheffield and Solingen razors - both fairly soft but the Sheffield slightly more so.

 

[JPO]

Yes, I don't love how the 6k feels. Gummy is exactly how I would describe it and the reason I lap it before every use. Sometimes I do 3k->10k just to avoid using the 6k.

Now that I have the shapton 10k I will try to see if the 6k is redundant.
When I use my 6k I try to maximise my results on the 3k, just to spend less time one the 6k. 10 to 15 passes I usually more then enough.

Is the 3k to 10k jump working fine for you?

 

[Frank Shaves]

With my Shapton HR stones, I am finding the 3x rule to work nicely:

500 > 3 * 500 = 1500 round down to 1000* > 3 * 1000 = 3000 > 3 * 3000 = 9000 round down to 8000

Equates to 500 > 1000 > 3000 > 8000.

*Unlike the Professional line, Shapton does not make the HR in 1500.

 

[Steve56]

3x to 10x in the Shapton Glass HR series works for me too.

 

[rhgg2]

Since my usual progression is 1k, 3k, 6k, natural, I figured it would be worth trying the 6k HC as a replacement for the 6k HR.

First up, I can't argue with the results. It leaves a very polished bevel and an edge I am quite happy shaving off, which has not typically been the case with the 6k HR.

However from first impressions I don't know that I love sharpening on it as yet. It feels quite soft and the feedback is less distinct than the HR. Moreover I feel like it tends to suck the blade into the stone before it's done. With my usual pressure this leads to skipping/hydroplaning so I have to either increase pressure slightly or else roll a bit more. This problem does also arise on the HR after a few razors and I can fix it by resurfacing, but on the HC this is happening directly after lapping on a fresh atoma 400. Is there a trick I'm missing with this stone?

 

[Herrenberg]

Since my usual progression is 1k, 3k, 6k, natural, I figured it would be worth trying the 6k HC as a replacement for the 6k HR.

First up, I can't argue with the results. It leaves a very polished bevel and an edge I am quite happy shaving off, which has not typically been the case with the 6k HR.

However from first impressions I don't know that I love sharpening on it as yet. It feels quite soft and the feedback is less distinct than the HR. Moreover I feel like it tends to suck the blade into the stone before it's done. With my usual pressure this leads to skipping/hydroplaning so I have to either increase pressure slightly or else roll a bit more. This problem does also arise on the HR after a few razors and I can fix it by resurfacing, but on the HC this is happening directly after lapping on a fresh atoma 400. Is there a trick I'm missing with this stone?

I've used mine quite a bit in the same way, as part of a pre-natural sequence. I've encountered occasional suctioning, but nothing that would not yield to a slight adjustment in pressure or torqueing or the shape of the X-stroke.

Part of me wants to congratulate you on the perfection of your razor geometry, but I certainly understand that it's frustrating.

I don't think it is at all a soft stone, but I can understand why it gives that impression. And yes, all of the HC stones leave a high polish.

If you get completely frustrated, to the point of laying in different stones, an alternate sequence, and the one I use most, is 1000HR, 3000 HR, 10000 HR, then on to naturals. That has the advantage of using two of the stones (3000 and 10000) that are part of Shapton's recommended razor sequence, and which probably therefore have more narrowly-sieved grit. But I've deviated to one of the HCs plenty, without running into this problem in any lasting way.

Does it happen for all of your razors, or just the one?

 

[rhgg2]

I've used mine quite a bit in the same way, as part of a pre-natural sequence. I've encountered occasional suctioning, but nothing that would not yield to a slight adjustment in pressure or torqueing or the shape of the X-stroke.

Part of me wants to congratulate you on the perfection of your razor geometry, but I certainly understand that it's frustrating.

I don't think it is at all a soft stone, but I can understand why it gives that impression. And yes, all of the HC stones leave a high polish.

If you get completely frustrated, to the point of laying in different stones, an alternate sequence, and the one I use most, is 1000HR, 3000 HR, 10000 HR, then on to naturals. That has the advantage of using two of the stones (3000 and 10000) that are part of Shapton's recommended razor sequence, and which probably therefore have more narrowly-sieved grit. But I've deviated to one of the HCs plenty, without running into this problem in any lasting way.

Does it happen for all of your razors, or just the one?

Thanks! Now you mention it, the two razors I tried so far are my least warped, so that may be part of it.

I also suspect it's something to do with water management. The hard HR stones work well with anything from barely damp to a small lake on top. With softer stones I've noticed that more water tends to cause problems. Lately here it has been super hot (high 90s and upward) in our workshop room where I hone so I kind of have to use lots of water or else it all evaporates immediately. I don't know that this is helpful with the HC.

 

[RRGGMM]

This thread is fascinating and intimidating. As with most things, I need to dive in and see how honing goes for me once I get to that point and adjust from there. Great exchange of experience here.

 

[rhgg2]

I've used mine quite a bit in the same way, as part of a pre-natural sequence. I've encountered occasional suctioning, but nothing that would not yield to a slight adjustment in pressure or torqueing or the shape of the X-stroke.

Part of me wants to congratulate you on the perfection of your razor geometry, but I certainly understand that it's frustrating.

I don't think it is at all a soft stone, but I can understand why it gives that impression. And yes, all of the HC stones leave a high polish.

If you get completely frustrated, to the point of laying in different stones, an alternate sequence, and the one I use most, is 1000HR, 3000 HR, 10000 HR, then on to naturals. That has the advantage of using two of the stones (3000 and 10000) that are part of Shapton's recommended razor sequence, and which probably therefore have more narrowly-sieved grit. But I've deviated to one of the HCs plenty, without running into this problem in any lasting way.

Does it happen for all of your razors, or just the one?

Figure I should circle back to this: after lapping a couple more times the 6k HC has settled in and now behaves just as well as the HR. Starting to read its more subtle feedback a bit better now as well. It's a nice stone, definitely needs a bit more time than the HR but leaves a finish that's very easy to work with on subsequent stones.

 

[JPO]

Figure I should circle back to this: after lapping a couple more times the 6k HC has settled in and now behaves just as well as the HR. Starting to read its more subtle feedback a bit better now as well. It's a nice stone, definitely needs a bit more time than the HR but leaves a finish that's very easy to work with on subsequent stones.

This stone works best for me with a fresh surface (typically an atoma 600). I also don't like to use it as a starting point for a "touch-up". If the bevel is too polished it has a tendency to get sucked into the stone a little. I don't get this if i do some light work on a 3k hr first. If i do that, then when the edge starts to pick up resistance it's time to move to the next grit. 3k to 6k hr does not take much work. It's a really nice bridging stone to an 8k or as i do, to an 10k.
This stone will never be a stone i spend much time on, but it works really well for what i use it for.

 

[Herrenberg]

Figure I should circle back to this: after lapping a couple more times the 6k HC has settled in and now behaves just as well as the HR. Starting to read its more subtle feedback a bit better now as well. It's a nice stone, definitely needs a bit more time than the HR but leaves a finish that's very easy to work with on subsequent stones.

Thanks for the followup. Your experience now meshes exactly with mine. I agree about the subtle feedback.