The Jordan Legacy, and its place in NBA history

[Anomaly]

Mmkay, rather than turning the "NBA fans" thread into a Jordan vs. "the next Jordan" debate, I figured I'd make a separate thread to address some of the issues that were brought up on that thread. Several have claimed I'm missing some phenomenal basketball by not be an avid watcher these days. It is common for many of the younger fans (I'd say around 25 or so, and under) to have this misperception due to the propaganda being perpetuated by the NBA over the last 10 or so years. This thread is not meant as an attack on Kobe, or wetshavingmonkey, or anyone else. It is merely meant to expose the masquerade Mr. Stern has created. Not that I have anything against him, either. After all, it is his job to promote and make the league marketable.

I have been hearing this "the next Jordan" BS long before Jordan actually retired (the 2nd time). From Grant Hill, to Harold "what ever happened to get guy" Minor (aka "Baby Jordan"), to Kobe Bryant, to LeBron James, etc. There has been a never-ending stream of nominees to fill the void that Jordan left, pretenders to the throne. I'm sorry, but neither I, nor most others over 25 or so are drinking the Kool-Aid. Jumping as high, or making a few moves as acrobatic as Jordan does not make one "the next Jordan". Those of us that grew up watching him realize this and understand why.

It's interesting how many people consider Kobe to be a selfish player -- don't you think he is just doing what Phil Jackson tells him to do?

No. I thought it was common knowledge that Kobe is a bit of a cry baby who doesn't like to listen, especially after Phil Jackson spelled it out himself in his book, The Last Season*...

"Throughout the book Phil Jackson criticizes Kobe Bryant for being childish and immature in his relationship with Kobe Bryant which was anything but pleasant. Phil Jackson details in his book how Kobe would refuse to listen to him..."*

Now Kobe has some talent around him that he trusts, and if he wins a championship in the post Shaq era, it will be the same kind of lovefest as it was with Jordan.

So...are you saying the Lakers went from a 3 time championship team, to a team with nothing but lousy players (justifying Kobe's lack of winning and ball hogging), and now back to a championship team in a matter of a few years?

There are a lot of Kobe haters out there (especially after his sexual assault trial), but he is the best player one the planet right now

....based on what? He has yet to win a regular season MVP, OR a finals MVP. He has yet to lead the league in points, or lead his team to a championship sans Shaq. He is a very, very talented athlete who can undoubtedly make some incredible and critical shots. However, that is very different than being thoroughly dominant over the sport.

A lot of people seem to forget that Jordan was highly criticized early in his career for being a selfish player, but once they surrounded him with some decent talent that he trusted, and the Bulls racked up championships left and right, everybody began to love Jordan.

While he may have been selfish, that's not what the criticism was about. He was indeed surrounded by a bunch of less-than-talented players for his first 5 or 6 years, and subsequently, didn't have much choice in the matter. I mean....come on....Dave Corzine, Gene Banks, Ennis Whatley, Elston Turner, Sedale Threatt, Rory Sparrow, Brad Sellers, Sidney Green? These guys make the current Bulls roster look like an All-Star squad. The REAL problem with what critics said, and what got under Jordan's skin, was the concept that "a scoring champion doesn't win championships". Guess he kinda' blew THAT one out of the water.

You know, just yesterday, Kobe took over 3rd place all-time for most 40 point games in a career behind Jordan and Wilt Chambelain, so, like it or not, Kobe is also in that same dimension.

This is the problem with the mentality of newer/younger NBA fans. I've seen countless such comments made by those claiming that (mostly Kobe, but a few others as well) is as good, if not better than Jordan. They point to an individual stat here and there, and suggest that this means a certain player is in the same league as another, failing to realize that the essence of Jordan and what he brought to the table was so far beyond his individual achievements AND even his total championships, that one could never understand unless s/he was there to witness his evolution unfold.

If Kobe and LeBron are able to surpass Jordan's scoring titles, or even win more championships in the future, that by no means indicates they were superior players. If that were the basis for declaring who's the best, there are countless players that could be unjustifiably written off as possibly being the greatest ever due to Jordan's achievements.

Keep this in mind too -- Kobe is now about the same age as Jordan was when he won his first championship, and Kobe already has a 3 ring head start.

While we're at it, a few other things to keep in mind in this comparison if you want to turn it into a debate of stats:

• MVP: Jordan 5 times* (5 for 15); Kobe 0 times (0 for 12)
• Finals MVP: Jordan 6 times* (6 for 6); Kobe 0 times (0 for 3)
• Career scoring average: Jordan 30.1 pts*; Kobe 24.8 pts
• Career scoring average playoffs: Jordan 33.45 pts*; Kobe 23.3 pts
• FG percentage: Jordan 50%; Kobe 45%
• Steals per game champion: Jordan 3 times (#2 all-time steals); Kobe 0 times
• All-Defensive 1st team: Jordan 9 times (9 for 15); Kobe 4 times (4 for 12)

And I could go on forever, but you get the idea. I just wanted to point out some of the more vital stats showing how often each was considered the most important player in the NBA, the bigger scorer WITH more accuracy, the better defender, etc. It should be noted that the league has watered down some of their rules to allow for more scoring (i.e. no hand checking). It should also be noted that Jordan's 15 seasons include that horrible little stint with the Wizards (granted, he DID set a few records, regardless of being a fraction of his former glory at age 39+), and a "semi-season" when he came back for 17 regular season games after his first retirement, collectively bringing down what would have been much higher averages (i.e. PPG, FG%, etc). His almost 2 year break after retirement #1 also prevented what more than likely would have been a couple more championships, and who knows how many more he could have rattled off with the Bulls had the team not been disassembled before retirement #2.

Wow, I think you are really missing the boat, my friend. If you enjoyed the Jordan era, you really owe it to yourself to watch some Laker games and Kobe Bryant.

I think you owe it to yourself to get back into the game. There's a lot of great talent to go around (KG, GA next season, Kobe, and Bosh to name a few), and they don't resemble the thug image you'd like paint the entire NBA with.

There's no boat to miss. KG and Kobe were around before the end of the Jordan era. And as I mentioned before, it's not like I haven't seen any NBA action over the last few years. I've watched plenty of games between the end of the Jordan era, and now. Why just a couple weeks ago, I caught Kobe and LeBron going at it. You're right, Kobe has a lot of talent (as does LeBron), and it was a decent game to watch. But as a whole, there is an aura and ambiance that just isn't being recaptured by this current school of players, and it is evident by the decline of popularity in the NBA. "NBA ratings have fallen almost 45 percent in the past decade."** That is HUGE!

I also highly doubt Stern went around telling the players "make sure to cover yourselves in tattoos, come to the games dressed like you just got done making a drug deal, have fist fights with the fans and coaches, and make gangsta' rap CDs in the off season". In fact, it was Stern who tried to suppress this image by pushing for things like the NBA dress code.*** Obviously, the entire league is not guilty of these thug characteristics, but in general, it HAS gone horribly downhill fast. I’m not alone in feeling this way, as others who posted on the “NBA fans” thread indicated, and the dramatic decline in ratings further proves. Pro basketball is a dying sport.



Citation
*http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/257260/the_drama_that_has_centered_around.html
**http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=tmq/030610
***http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...iters/phil_taylor/10/12/taylor1012/index.html
Michael Jordan Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michael_jordan/index.html
Kobe Bryant Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html

*Indicates record all-time high

 

[FriscoSoxFan]

Pitchers and catchers report in 10 days.

 

[tim8557]

I could give a flying hoot about the NBA. Just a bunch of low-life gangbangers being paid outrageous money.

 

[JBHoren]

Pitchers and catchers report in 10 days.

Jordan is Palestine

 

[Winzzy]

Spot on in every way. I am with you and agree 100%

 

[masonjarjar]

It's not about accolates or awards or stats.

Jordan was an artist. A true acrobat. Terms like "best" or "greatest" are subjective. And really, quite meaningless when applied to Jordan.

I watched him and his team beat the Cavs back in the early 90's.. as hard as that was, it wasn't so bad, because we got to watch Jordan perform his magic.

Yes, his stats might be surpassed, his records might be broken, but none of that matters. There will never be another Michael Jordan.

-Mason

 

[masonjarjar]

Oh, and Lebron may have ink, but his character is pretty much unassailable, save for a recent speeding ticket. We're all very proud of how this young man has conducted himself since joining the NBA right out of high school.

-Mason

 

[htownmmm]

The problem per se is not who's better at this stage. or who's the greatest player or even who has the most championships. The problem is that the NBA(David Stern) made a conscious decision to move away from promoting a team concept(Lakers vs Celtics, Pistons vs Bulls,etc) to an individual promotion(Magic vs Bird,Michael vs 'the Bad Boys', Kobe vs Shaq,Lebron vs Duncan and so on.

Basketball always has and always will be a team game that allows for individuals with great talent to shine within the team concept. Once everyone starts thinking that the individual with great talent is more important than the team, we can see the results in the current state of NBA affairs.

I grew up watching and loving one of the 'greatest teams' ever-the NY Knicks coached by Red Holzman. What made them a great team was not the amount of championships they won(2), but the way they played together @ all times.

They had a plethora of stars who all shone brightly in their own way-but when they got on the court, the blending of their talents made for exciting games of basketball to watch. That era produced other great teams that also were a joy to behold.

Now however, we have teams of individuals( except for Phoenix, San Antonio, Portland, and Boston currently who come to mind readily) who get together to play or stay out of the way of their star. Show me the star(outside of Wilt Chamberlain who could win on his own until facing a Celtic team) that currently can win every series in the playoffs by himself..... Even Jordan did not transcend greatness(Remember Michael & the Jordainaires?;he was considered a great scorer) until he learned to not only trust but depend on his teammates to do things he could not.

Once the NBA realizes that fans will tune in to see stars, but will stay to see teams play we might be able to regain our beloved game of basketball-sadly, I don't think this will happen unless our culture as a whole stops respecting the dollar more than people.(I shall now depart from the soapbox).


Marty

 

[Baloosh]

... I don't think this will happen unless our culture as a whole stops respecting the dollar more than people.

Marty

Ain't gonna happen, bro. Sorry.

 

[ouch]

This is a very interesting thread. No one can doubt MJ's accomplishments, but where exactly does he stand in the panthheon of sports' greats? He was certainly one of the best (but possibly not the best) to ever lace up a pair of sneakers, but how high do you rank him among the legends?

Baseball had Babe, hockey had Gretzky (and Orr a half generation earlier), bodybuilding had Ahnald (don't laugh- he may be the most significant of them all based on singlehanded contribution to the field), and boxing had Ali. I'll add Tiger Woods in golf. In at least the first four of these cases, the sport was either languishing in the doldrums or hasd never even gotten off the ground to begin with. Ruth resurrected the national pastime in the post Black Sox scandal era. Gretzky set records that looked like misprints. The governator is responsible for the existence of 90% of the gyms in the country. Ali helped (not completely, of course) turn boxing from a mob infused, dirty business to a previously unheard of level of respectability. Golf has always done well, but they have a new deity.

Jordan, by contrast, arrived on the scene during the golden age of hoops. It's not his fault that he appeared during the heyday of Kareem, Magic, and Bird, but the NBA wasn't exactly struggling at the time. His immediate impact was nowhere as great as that of Jabbar or Chamberlain, and it took him years to carve out his legend. Oscar Robinson calls him "a good player", something of an understatement, but that comes from a man who could have average a triple double for his career if someone had bothered to tell him that it eventually would have been considered something important.

Jordan was one of the most fundamentally sound players I ever saw, and had a tenacious desire to excel that was second to none. As time goes on, his legend will grow, along with the inevitable comparisons to the talent yet to come. He's Jonathan Winters, pool shark, in the great twilight zone episode. The contenders for his throne will not only have to overcome his talent, but his legend.

 

[moses]

Just to add one.... Going a little international (but he is the one probably most responsible for popularizing the sport in this country), soccer had Pele.

-Mo

 

[masonjarjar]

but how high do you rank him among the legends?

I don't know if I could think of anyone that was better at his own game than Michael Jordan was at basketball.

The only one I can think of that is close is Pete Rose.

 

[Mr Mxytplk]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster, and huge NBA fan. I hope I'm not going to stir up a hornets nest here, but I feel the need to say a few things. First off, as far as forum etiquette goes, I find it odd when somebody says they are not attacking someone, and then proceeds to paraphrase every sentence of one of their posts. I don't know you or this wetshavingmonkey, so maybe you two have had some conflicts in the past here, I don't know. It's just always been my belief to not get too twisted up by what someone says, it is, after all, merely their opinion.

I hate to diminish the "Jordan Legacy" (in fact it would probably be a very downright dangerous thing to do in the Chicago area), but at the point that the Bulls rose to prominence, the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons were getting long in the tooth and the league added 4 expansion teams in 1988-89, and 2 more in 1993-94. This "watering down" of the league in large part paved the way for the Bulls dominance. Again, not trying to start a fight, just my opinion.

 

[ouch]

Mr. "don't force me to make you say your name backwards" makes a good point. The league is more than a bit watered down, and there are a ton of players who have no business being in the NBA.

 

[TimmyBoston]

Pitchers and catchers report in 10 days.

Hell yeah!

 

[Anomaly]

I could give a flying hoot about the NBA. Just a bunch of low-life gangbangers being paid outrageous money.

As opposed to the upstanding citizens of the NFL? Let's be realistic. It's all the same crap, just different toilets.

Oh, and Lebron may have ink, but his character is pretty much unassailable, save for a recent speeding ticket. We're all very proud of how this young man has conducted himself since joining the NBA right out of high school.

I would have to agree LeBron seems like a half way decent person from what I've seen of him. I meant to mention that on my initial post.

I watched him and his team beat the Cavs back in the early 90's.. as hard as that was, it wasn't so bad, because we got to watch Jordan perform his magic. Yes, his stats might be surpassed, his records might be broken, but none of that matters. There will never be another Michael Jordan.

Precisely. That is exactly the type of aura that I'm talking about that no one today seems to posses. One of the biggest kicks I got out of watching Michael was hearing the fans of the opposing team react when Michael made a phenomenal play, or when he was on a fast break by himself, and they knew a show stopping dunk was coming. Granted I have seen the newer generation players do some AMAZING stuff on the court, that artistry, or finesse is missing.

Baseball had Babe, hockey had Gretzky (and Orr a half generation earlier), bodybuilding had Ahnald (don't laugh- he may be the most significant of them all based on singlehanded contribution to the field), and boxing had Ali. I'll add Tiger Woods in golf. In at least the first four of these cases, the sport was either languishing in the doldrums or hasd never even gotten off the ground to begin with.

Arnold did indeed make bodybuilding. The movie Pumping Iron STILL has a pretty significant cult fan base, and it's over 30 years old, now. I manage a nutritional supplement store, and his popularity to this day never ceases to amaze me. You get a recent photo of Ronnie Coleman (won 8 Olympias in a row, lost the last 2), or Jay Cutler (won the last 2) on the cover of a muscle magazine, it sells ok. You slap on a black and white photo of Arnold from 1975, and in a matter of a week, that issue is GONE. He is definitely still the man as far as bodybuilding is concerned.

Jordan, by contrast, arrived on the scene during the golden age of hoops. It's not his fault that he appeared during the heyday of Kareem, Magic, and Bird, but the NBA wasn't exactly struggling at the time. His immediate impact was nowhere as great as that of Jabbar or Chamberlain, and it took him years to carve out his legend.

Basketball certainly wasn't struggling when he came around, but Jordan propelled its popularity into another dimension. People who had never touched a basketball before (including me) took up the sport strictly due to him. People were forking over $125 for a pair of his shoes, a large number of which never intended on setting foot on a basketball court with them (it became “cool” or fashionable). I wasn't around for the Jabbar or Chamberlain era, so I can't compare impact, but I DO know there was one hell of a buzz around Michael right off the bat, and it only increased with each passing year. This is what led Nike to not only offer Michael more than any athlete had ever received to endorse a shoe, but actually put his name on it.

Oscar Robinson calls him "a good player", something of an understatement, but that comes from a man who could have average a triple double for his career if someone had bothered to tell him that it eventually would have been considered something important.

The Big “O” is definitely in contention for best player ever, and he DID average a triple/double for at least a season. As you said, it would have been interesting to see what he would have done had it been known that he inadvertently created what would later be a category. I can understand him being a bit upset with not getting the recognition he deserves, and maybe downplaying Jordan’s status. Regardless, there are many other former greats and contenders for the title of “greatest ever” who have given that title to Michael “hands down”, including Magic Johnson, Larry Bird (who went so far as to call him “god disguised as Michael Jordan”), Jerry West (the man who’s silhouette is used on the NBA logo), etc.

Jordan was one of the most fundamentally sound players I ever saw, and had a tenacious desire to excel that was second to none. As time goes on, his legend will grow, along with the inevitable comparisons to the talent yet to come. He's Jonathan Winters, pool shark, in the great twilight zone episode. The contenders for his throne will not only have to overcome his talent, but his legend.

I think your first sentence is often overlooked. I feel a lot of the poor basketball we’re seeing is due to many of today’s players lacking these fundamentals. They’re so concerned with making crazy, acrobatic highlight shots, that they couldn’t care less about the fundamentals of the game. And certainly, skipping college all together isn’t helping matters. Regardless of raw talent, the skills developed in ANY sport through following the proper steps of learning and maturing as an athlete are needed in order to become the best player possible. It’s a natural progression, and skipping steps disrupts that progression. That last sentence sums up the dilemma for the new players quite nicely.

The problem per se is not who's better at this stage. or who's the greatest player or even who has the most championships. The problem is that the NBA(David Stern) made a conscious decision to move away from promoting a team concept(Lakers vs Celtics, Pistons vs Bulls,etc) to an individual promotion(Magic vs Bird,Michael vs 'the Bad Boys', Kobe vs Shaq,Lebron vs Duncan and so on.

Very good point. It has indeed become an individualized sport, vs. team rivalries of the past. As far as Michael, I think he created a lot of that himself when he first burst onto the scene. The Bulls were such a terrible team, and Michael’s skills were so extraordinary, that it was only naturally he’d grab the entire spotlight as opposed to the whole team. Though I think towards the end, when the Bulls really started rattling off one championship after another, it was very much a team thing (i.e. Knicks vs. Bulls –a super intense rivalry- Suns vs. Bulls, Utah vs. Bulls, etc). I remember the "Superman, Batman and Rodman" references to Jordan, Pippen and Dennis. Watching the Bull’s dazzling display of talent and teamwork from the last 3 championships was fun, and very reminiscent of the "Showtime Lakers". Obviously, Jordan was the main/star attraction, but the team as a whole provided terrific entertainment.

First off, as far as forum etiquette goes, I find it odd when somebody says they are not attacking someone, and then proceeds to paraphrase every sentence of one of their posts. I don't know you or this wetshavingmonkey, so maybe you two have had some conflicts in the past here, I don't know. It's just always been my belief to not get too twisted up by what someone says, it is, after all, merely their opinion.

I’m new to the forums myself, and haven’t had conflicts with anyone. I didn’t want to derail the other thread, so when I found some slightly off-topic points I wanted to address, I decided to practice “proper forum etiquette” and create a new thread. The reason wetshavingmonkey’s sentences are paraphrased is because his sentiments echo the epitome of many newer basketball fans. This is why I wanted to make it clear that this wasn’t an attack on him, but rather a discussion about how valid some of these sentiments are. I also find it easier to go section by section when the points being raised in a post(s) are all over the place. It’s hard to address all those points coherently in one long piece.

I hate to diminish the "Jordan Legacy" (in fact it would probably be a very downright dangerous thing to do in the Chicago area), but at the point that the Bulls rose to prominence, the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons were getting long in the tooth and the league added 4 expansion teams in 1988-89, and 2 more in 1993-94. This "watering down" of the league in large part paved the way for the Bulls dominance. Again, not trying to start a fight, just my opinion.

Expansion teams certainly started the diluting of talent, and I don’t think there were as many great teams as there were in the ‘80s. However, there was still plenty of fierce competition, both team-wise, and individual players. The post-season showdowns against the Knicks tended to resemble a boxing match more than a basketball game. Utah had an excellent all around team, as did the Suns. The only team I felt didn’t pose that much of a threat to the Bulls was Portland.

Also, when I mentioned the league being water down, I was referring to changes in rules to make scoring easier, though the expansions have certainly aided the demise of the league.

 

[ouch]

I wasn't around for the Jabbar or Chamberlain era, so I can't compare impact, but I DO know there was one hell of a buzz around Michael right off the bat

You made some great points, but the above isn't completely accurate. When Wilt arrived on the scene, he was absolutely murdering everyone in his path. It was the equivalent of an athletic nine footer entering the league today. Bill Russell is considered, by far, the greatest defensive center in history, and Chamberlain's numbers against him in head to head play are breathtaking. When Alcindor was graduating, it was a given that any team to obtain him would be an instant contender. Jordan wasn't even drafted first, and I won't even bother mentioning a name that was selected before him. He was a great college player, but no scout seemed to have any idea just how great he would become.

At the height of his career, I used to joke with my friends that he wasn't even the highest paid athlete named "Michael".

The Big “O” is definitely in contention for best player ever, and he DID average a triple/double for at least a season.

First three seasons, in fact, and very nearly his first four.

 

[Mr Mxytplk]

Okay, I have to call you on this one:

I’m new to the forums myself, and haven’t had conflicts with anyone. I didn’t want to derail the other thread, so when I found some slightly off-topic points I wanted to address, I decided to practice “proper forum etiquette” and create a new thread.

I searched out the thread that you paraphrased wetshavingmonkey from, which was entitiled "Any NBA Fans?" , in which you wrote:

Same here. The end of the Jordan era (I ignore his little stint with the Wizards that destroyed an otherwise storybook ending to his career) pretty much marked the end of good basketball to me. I can't get into it anymore. It went from guys who's only concern was winning, with big cash and prizes being secondary, to a bunch of whining, gangsta' thugs that act like this is still black top b-ball while demanding contracts that exceed the GDP of a small country. I don't think there have ever been very many pro athletes that are deserving of respect outside of the realm of their sport, but at least the ones of yesteryear conducted themselves with SOME tact in public (i.e. wearing nice suits to/from the game, respecting the coaches, trying not to sound ignant during interviews vs. tank tops, baggy pants hanging half way down their underwear, covered in tattoos, choking coaches, punching fans, and making gangsta' rap albums in the off season). I use to know every stat about every player in the NBA at one time. I just can NOT get into the new, urban flavor, though.

It doesn't sound like you are an NBA fan at all, so why post so much off-topic negativity in that thread? There are a lot of points you make that I agree with, mainly the tattoos, but some of us choose to move forward and not live in the glorious past of the Jordan era. Every generation gripes about the current NBA players and reflect on how much better past players were, and it's a debate that will go on forever. But, just to add some fuel to the "best" player debate, I vote for Jerry West. How many other athletes have become the logo for their respective sport?

 

[rtaylor61]

I've never considered Phil Jackson much of a coach. How hard is it to say...depending on location...

"Get the ball to Michael..."

"Get the ball to Shaq..."

"Get the ball to Kobe..."

Randy

 

[Mr Mxytplk]

I've never considered Phil Jackson much of a coach. How hard is it to say...depending on location...

"Get the ball to Michael..."

"Get the ball to Shaq..."

"Get the ball to Kobe..."

Randy

If this is the case, explain why Doug Collins didn't win with Jordan in Chicago, and Del harris didn't win with Shaq and Kobe in Los Angeles. This is the same kind of rap that was thrown on Pat Riley when he coached the Lakers. Some people think that when a team has a lot of talent, that the coach just rolls the balls out at practice and things fall into place by themselves. Jackson has proven himself to be the Hall of Fame coach that he is, not just with the Bulls, but also with the amazing turn around with the Lakers in his first 3 years there. If anything, it is more difficult to coach when you have a lot of talent because of egos and complacency.