Most guys know this but Im going to post this for some of the newer guys, THe cloth you use after a honing can make a noticeable difference in the overall edge. A BIG enough difference to say it is worth doing Im going to say that clean cotton or hemp has no effect, clean felt none as well, nylon webbing none as well, kanayama linen is good, vintage waxed flax is better yet, foam core nylon is the absolute best Ive ever used. I finish on leather as well after. Why? Well I think that there may be a few things going on, not new concepts, Ive learned these here and by reading about it. Some believe that a wire edge is achieved always no matter what you use to hone with. Vigorous linen stropping removes this. Now Im not trying to argue that point with anybody, you dont have to believe it. I have no proof of this either, only the proof that whatever these strops do is very good for the edge. So if your stuck and have not been using any of these components, I think your edge will benefit. The foam core nylon is available from bigeasytools.com No affiliation with them or anyone else. Feedback on this has been TREMENDOUS from established and well know honers to new guys as well. Again it is unpasted. Leather I havent found to make a big difference. I prefer horsehide for the fast and easy draw, but I get the same results from cowhide or kangaroo. If you havent gotten any I would. Its cheap and readily available.
Stropping is part of honing
- Thread starter buca3152
- Start date
Thanks for this.
Any one like the Illinois "linen" component?
Any one like the Illinois "linen" component?
- Thread starter
- #3
This is foam core, the illinois is not , Ive used that as well. THIS IMO is much better. I think the cloth sells for $4 a foot 2 ft minimum plus ship. So its cheap!
The difference in the fibers of hemp and linen are almost indistinguishable. I do not believe Kanayama is linen. I have heard it is hemp. I find clean hemp herringbone webbing effective also.
Is this the same stuff? Just too wide.
http://www.industrialwebbing.com/veltex-brand-loop-fabric/
I looked on bigeasytools but don't see a way to order the nylon webbing.
http://www.industrialwebbing.com/veltex-brand-loop-fabric/
I looked on bigeasytools but don't see a way to order the nylon webbing.
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- Thread starter
- #6
Cant be sure really. It is noisy and very zippy when you use it. Its poly BUT its foam core so more rigid. I can only speak for what Ive used, and the feedback Ive heard from others using the same. I havent had a negative review on it, and everyone has been extremely happy with its performance. I was looking for something that was as good as vintage waxed linen which is sometimes hard to find, some of them are dirty and even pasted with who knows what. So I knew instantly it was as good, but after a couple of months I find it to be superior and others have said the same. No dog in this race, I dont sell it nor do I get ANYTHING out of this other than hoping it helps you and others out. SOme of these simple things can add little bits to what we have already. Seems that some stuff is kept hidden. I dont know why. ANyway if you get some let us know how it goes. Would love to hear others review, good, bad or indifferent. This is a forum so these things are vital IMO to new guys especially who may not know how much more they can get out of using it.
Actually, clean cotton and hemp can/will have an effect on a razor.
People have contested this for the last, what - 50 yr or longer though. Seems to be a major case of YMMV, or - rather - not all fabrics are created the same and each may behave differently for different people.
But - can does not mean 'will'. Thing is, it's quality, weave and pressure dependent. Well, while the quality of the hemp and cotton are part of the weave, it's another topic and those qualities too have a notable impact - not always positive though. Some hemp is detrimental, some cheap cotton webbing does nothing past drying the blade - which is fine if that's the desired effect. I keep a plain cotton webbing here for just that purpose. Water left in the striations during honing is best removed completely on the cotton, no other material does that particular job nearly as well.
But the (for lack of a better term) coarseness of the webbing and weave pattern are both big players in the mix.
If you have a cheap quality fiber that is also woven cheaply, chances are you'll have an inert material, or a detrimental one - so far as stropping is concerned. Most webbing isn't designed for stropping, so those cheaper materials can actually excel for their intended purpose.
I've spent the last 9-10 months working with mills here in the USA, 99% of the discussion revolves around cotton, jute, hemp and linen webbing and it's use for our purposes.
What I've found through extensive experimentation.
Clean untreated material
Thin flax linen webbing of high quality can have an appreciable positive effect. But it's not readily found.
Heavier flax linen webbing is rarer, but does an incredible job.
Older flax linen webbings, heavy stuff - leaves a very even polish on the steel, best of all tested materials in all regards when it's clean and finished correctly. Not all Flax Linen is created equal.
Heavy canvas webbing, which is usually cotton based, like the Kanayama strop - can be wicked good.
Heavy 100% Cotton webbing/strapping is mild, but effective 'enough', dries the blade best.
Hemp fabrics are all over the place, depends on where it was made, and how well the manufacturer or the people supplying the raw material to the mill paid attention to the initial processes. Some is unusable, others are excellent.
Felt webbing can destroy an edge or be inert. I gave up on this stuff fast. There's a seller on ebay wth 3" felt webbing but it's made from reclaimed fibers which can only be a headache.
Seatbelt material - most useless stropping material ever.
Polymer fibers, aramids, etc - basically ineffective, not worth the bother. Doesn't dry, doesn't impact the cutting edge well enough for me to care about it's price point.
Both of the above seem to be available, mostly, because better alternatives are much more expensive and way harder to get.
Because the linen component is, theoretically, unneccessary (factually, many people are happy without one) - using a cheaper ineffective material suits big business concerns well. Adding a seatbelt component adds a significant upcharge for a very low investment - as long as it doesn't hurt anything, there are few - if any - complaints.
The 'Emporer's New Clothes' effect takes care of the rest of the population.
Just last week i had a meeting with a manufacturer that produces Mil-Spec webbings, all synthetic though. They had an idea that might fly, but I'm not convinced the product will perform as imagined. As I've found, repeatedly - is that modern polymer fibers contain a lubricating element and they're highly polished. While that's excellent for wear resistance, longevity and strength, it works against the basic concept of what I'm looking for in stropping material.
All of this exploration has a goal, trying to get a mill here in the USA to produce a 3" cotton webbing 2 mm thick with a particular weave that's proven to work well. At this point in history, it seems to be the best compromise of materials, cost, and effect.
People have contested this for the last, what - 50 yr or longer though. Seems to be a major case of YMMV, or - rather - not all fabrics are created the same and each may behave differently for different people.
But - can does not mean 'will'. Thing is, it's quality, weave and pressure dependent. Well, while the quality of the hemp and cotton are part of the weave, it's another topic and those qualities too have a notable impact - not always positive though. Some hemp is detrimental, some cheap cotton webbing does nothing past drying the blade - which is fine if that's the desired effect. I keep a plain cotton webbing here for just that purpose. Water left in the striations during honing is best removed completely on the cotton, no other material does that particular job nearly as well.
But the (for lack of a better term) coarseness of the webbing and weave pattern are both big players in the mix.
If you have a cheap quality fiber that is also woven cheaply, chances are you'll have an inert material, or a detrimental one - so far as stropping is concerned. Most webbing isn't designed for stropping, so those cheaper materials can actually excel for their intended purpose.
I've spent the last 9-10 months working with mills here in the USA, 99% of the discussion revolves around cotton, jute, hemp and linen webbing and it's use for our purposes.
What I've found through extensive experimentation.
Clean untreated material
Thin flax linen webbing of high quality can have an appreciable positive effect. But it's not readily found.
Heavier flax linen webbing is rarer, but does an incredible job.
Older flax linen webbings, heavy stuff - leaves a very even polish on the steel, best of all tested materials in all regards when it's clean and finished correctly. Not all Flax Linen is created equal.
Heavy canvas webbing, which is usually cotton based, like the Kanayama strop - can be wicked good.
Heavy 100% Cotton webbing/strapping is mild, but effective 'enough', dries the blade best.
Hemp fabrics are all over the place, depends on where it was made, and how well the manufacturer or the people supplying the raw material to the mill paid attention to the initial processes. Some is unusable, others are excellent.
Felt webbing can destroy an edge or be inert. I gave up on this stuff fast. There's a seller on ebay wth 3" felt webbing but it's made from reclaimed fibers which can only be a headache.
Seatbelt material - most useless stropping material ever.
Polymer fibers, aramids, etc - basically ineffective, not worth the bother. Doesn't dry, doesn't impact the cutting edge well enough for me to care about it's price point.
Both of the above seem to be available, mostly, because better alternatives are much more expensive and way harder to get.
Because the linen component is, theoretically, unneccessary (factually, many people are happy without one) - using a cheaper ineffective material suits big business concerns well. Adding a seatbelt component adds a significant upcharge for a very low investment - as long as it doesn't hurt anything, there are few - if any - complaints.
The 'Emporer's New Clothes' effect takes care of the rest of the population.
Just last week i had a meeting with a manufacturer that produces Mil-Spec webbings, all synthetic though. They had an idea that might fly, but I'm not convinced the product will perform as imagined. As I've found, repeatedly - is that modern polymer fibers contain a lubricating element and they're highly polished. While that's excellent for wear resistance, longevity and strength, it works against the basic concept of what I'm looking for in stropping material.
All of this exploration has a goal, trying to get a mill here in the USA to produce a 3" cotton webbing 2 mm thick with a particular weave that's proven to work well. At this point in history, it seems to be the best compromise of materials, cost, and effect.
- Thread starter
- #8
I was under the impression that the Kanayama was just stiff cotton?
Thanks for the link. I might get some. Anything new that might improve my edge, IMO is definitely worth a try. It's cheap too!
Seems to be the case. But I didn't have it analyzed in a lab.
Since people have been marketing retail goods in the shaving world, there's been a never ending back/forth of which products are best.
The best thing anyone can do is try stuff and judge based on what they know, not think, to be their reality.
At times, this is difficult because of FUD campaigns, and various other tactics people use to promote their agendas.
When I got here - people told me cotton was useless. Yet I had a cotton strop and it worked well.
People told me seatbelt material was great - yet I had one and it was totally useless.
And so on, and so forth....
I sent an email to bigeasytools day before yesterday and they haven't responded. You can't buy their second component strop material without buying a leather strop also on their website. They don't sell it on their website and they don't answer emails. The best material in the world is no good if you can't obtain it. Just sayin. Do you know of another seller that carries the strop material?
Visually, hemp and linen are nearly identical - they twist in opposite directions, and that's just about the only way to tell the difference.
The thing with hemp though, is how it's made. Different people use different rotting processes, and not all of it is as clean as one would like. Some hemp webbing is loaded with what looks like bark woven into it. Not good. Other stuff is very clean and consistent but it still needs to be processed a bit to take away some of what I call brittleness. I'm sure that's not the right term, but once the fibers soften up and stop breaking off the material works in nicely.
The heavier weave material is very good and it defineitly does a damn fine job. Most of the herringbone stuff I've had is very thin and a step or two behind heavier and more traditional canvas type of weave though. But both work.
Their Ebay store carries the webbing in multiples of 24 inch lengths. There were 2 widths listed last i looked.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Unpasted cloth strop components are the ultimate YMMV item. Me, I dont use them. I have an American Mountain 3"er I bought from WCS, and the first thing I did when I got it was strip it right down and reassemble only the leather on both D rings. I have two Star Shaving Big Daddy strops, both of which I reduced to leather only, with a D ring on each end. I just never found that cloth, felt, or anything else does what leather or balsa can't do. I havent tried everything that there is to try, but I really dont have time for that anyway and I am delighted with the results that I get from what I use. Some guys swear by this linen or that canvas or this webbing or that microcloth, and its all good. Even if it is jsut a placebo, if it makes you feel good, do it.
My main non-leather unpasted strop material is 1/16" thick balsa, supported only at the ends and allowed to sag slightly. Really seems like it does a great job of removing a fin or wire edge. I have shaved off it, too. Absolutely excellent after stropping on pasted balsa.
My main non-leather unpasted strop material is 1/16" thick balsa, supported only at the ends and allowed to sag slightly. Really seems like it does a great job of removing a fin or wire edge. I have shaved off it, too. Absolutely excellent after stropping on pasted balsa.
Can't find them on ebay...
- Thread starter
- #16
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cloth-Mater...499455?hash=item33acdd0abf:g:L80AAOSwiLdV-s~V
Heres the link for 2.5 inch wide, they also have 3 inch.
Heres the link for 2.5 inch wide, they also have 3 inch.
Thanks for the info....
I've been straight shaving on and off since '59 and only used a whetstone to sharpen the blade until recently because I didn't
know about all these methods.
I've been elucidated and inspired by the great guys on the straight razor forum ... especially ... Slash, Alpster and yourself.
I'm really glad I found this forum.
I'm going to get some of this stuff straight away and give it a shot.
I've been straight shaving on and off since '59 and only used a whetstone to sharpen the blade until recently because I didn't
know about all these methods.
I've been elucidated and inspired by the great guys on the straight razor forum ... especially ... Slash, Alpster and yourself.
I'm really glad I found this forum.
I'm going to get some of this stuff straight away and give it a shot.
Who was that fellow who took SEM images for us a couple years ago? Didn't he find that Hemp and Flax were virtually indistinguishable with regards to effect.
That said. I've owned 20-30 strops, vintage and modern.
In order of effectiveness from useless to top:
Felt. 100% useless. This does NOTHING. Only exists as a surface for abrasive.
Anything on a paddle. 99% useless. Without a flexible surface, it doesn't contact the edge. Now obviously pressure to the point that the surface (leather or whatever) COMPRESSES to allow contact solves this, but I don't strop that way. So I'll caveat this one that paddle stropping is useless -for my style of stropping-.
Hard plastic-textured Nylon/whatever (Modern Illinois strops): This works, but has trouble with contact. Probably a thorough stressing/break-in could resolve this. I'd say it's 50-60% as effective as other solutions as shipped.
Everything else: A multi-way tie. Suede included. Vintage flax in a dozen different flavors and styles. Every modern cotton component I've tried. They all work just fine. The bulk of your work is done on the leather, so really all you need is the right balance of resistance and give. Felt fails at this, A flat surface fails at this, almost everything else works. I've gotten elastic corded womens belts and stretched them out. They work. Snakeskin works. Old Jeans work. If you get the hang of it your palm or forearm works. Now I do have my favorites (I'm a big fan of my old DD's brittle and stiff linen that feels like it could survive nuclear war) but they all work just as well.
That said. I've owned 20-30 strops, vintage and modern.
In order of effectiveness from useless to top:
Felt. 100% useless. This does NOTHING. Only exists as a surface for abrasive.
Anything on a paddle. 99% useless. Without a flexible surface, it doesn't contact the edge. Now obviously pressure to the point that the surface (leather or whatever) COMPRESSES to allow contact solves this, but I don't strop that way. So I'll caveat this one that paddle stropping is useless -for my style of stropping-.
Hard plastic-textured Nylon/whatever (Modern Illinois strops): This works, but has trouble with contact. Probably a thorough stressing/break-in could resolve this. I'd say it's 50-60% as effective as other solutions as shipped.
Everything else: A multi-way tie. Suede included. Vintage flax in a dozen different flavors and styles. Every modern cotton component I've tried. They all work just fine. The bulk of your work is done on the leather, so really all you need is the right balance of resistance and give. Felt fails at this, A flat surface fails at this, almost everything else works. I've gotten elastic corded womens belts and stretched them out. They work. Snakeskin works. Old Jeans work. If you get the hang of it your palm or forearm works. Now I do have my favorites (I'm a big fan of my old DD's brittle and stiff linen that feels like it could survive nuclear war) but they all work just as well.
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Both flax and hemp along with stinging nettles and many other plants are all considered Bast Fibers when used for weaving. Technically only true linen is made from flax but in general it depends on where the weaving or the growing of the material takes place because some locals do not have flax plants. The bast fiber strands do not coil together so they cannot be spun like cotton, wool or silk, but instead require knotting and this is part of the cost in labor of linen weaving especially in super fine linen. In Japan for instance their native linen called asa consisted of fibers from the banana tree in Okinawa, hemp from western Kyushu and stinging nettle from the east prefectures. Also some bast fibers were drawn from wisteria to make really rugged peasants clothing. Indigo dye was popular with the asa or bast fiber weaving of Japan and in the Edo period asa fabric could be substituted for rice to pay taxes. A handful of modern weavers of the stuff are considered Living National Treasures.
Alex
I too was skeptical when I first heard of this "cloth" component that buca mentions. But, I had to give it try at the price. I must say, it works the best of anything I have tried to date (I haven't tried real linen so I can't compare). While it is not pasted, it does have an abrasive quality to it as evidenced by the gray color left behind after use.
