Rancidity...

[RicoSuave]

Anyone else ever experience RANCIDITY "issues" with their soaps?

I recently noticed a slightly OFF smell from a relatively new, 3/4 full tup of soap, the type of smell you might get from overused/old oil.

Is such phenomena COMMON, or could it just be this individual batch?

If common, does it suggest that one simply purchase, and use, just a COUPLE of soaps at a time (vs. the MULTIPLE soaps I, and many of you, own at once)?

Thanks for participating, gents!

 

[EclipseRedRing]

Only with Cella in the red tub. All my other soaps are hard triple milled and none are rancid despite many being 60+ years old. I may take several years to finish a puck due to having a few in rotation and none go bad. For creams and softer so called, artisan soaps, I can imagine it might be a problem, especially if they are not fully dried between uses and before storage.

 

[RicoSuave]

Only with Cella in the red tub. All my other soaps are hard triple milled and none are rancid despite many being 60+ years old. I may take several years to finish a puck due to having a few in rotation and none go bad. For creams and softer so called, artisan soaps, I can imagine it might be a problem, especially if they are not fully dried between uses and before storage.

"... 60+ years old?" Shut up! What, did ya start shaving in the WOMB?

Seriously though, I guess rancidity shouldn't be a SURPRISE.

Unless it's a totally ARTIFICIAL product (a la "Barbasol"), I gotta assume that ANY product, be it cooking oil or soap, that contains NATURAL fat is bound to go "bad."

Then again, would that necessarily apply to SOAP, with all its unique properties, including alkali, etc.?

I won't pretend to assume to know the answer, as chemistry is not my expertise, and I'm sure the actual "chemists" amongst you would correct me if I were wrong.

 

[lasta]

Any soap lacking preservatives can go rancid.

 

[AZBronco]

I’ve had it happen to Cella and a couple of artisan soaps that used natural things like olive oil, avocado oil, etc. Now I only keep about 5 soaps on hand at any given time just to make sure I’m rotating through them. I also make sure they are dry before I put the lid back on.

 

[EclipseRedRing]

"... 60+ years old?" Shut up! What, did ya start shaving in the WOMB?

Seriously though, I guess rancidity shouldn't be a SURPRISE.

Unless it's a totally ARTIFICIAL product (a la "Barbasol"), I gotta assume that ANY product, be it cooking oil or soap, that contains NATURAL fat is bound to go "bad."

Then again, would that necessarily apply to SOAP, with all its unique properties, including alkali, etc.?

I won't pretend to assume to know the answer, as chemistry is not my expertise, and I'm sure the actual "chemists" amongst you would correct me if I were wrong.

I am not a chemist but I assume it must be down to the triple milling process removing most of the water. Most of my vintage soaps are tallow based and so contain animal fats. It cannot be due to the climate here in the UK as there are B&B members across the globe using, for example, Old Spice soap pucks which are decades old. Of course, as stated above, any soap can go bad if it is improperly stored but I suspect that triple milled hard soaps are most resiliant to poor storage. I assume softer, high fatted soaps are least resiliant, but I have no experience of them.

 

[RicoSuave]

I am not a chemist but I assume it must be down to the triple milling process removing most of the water. Most of my vintage soaps are tallow based and so contain animal fats. It cannot be due to the climate here in the UK as there are B&B members across the globe using, for example, Old Spice soap pucks which are decades old. Of course, as stated above, any soap can go bad if it is improperly stored but I suspect that triple milled hard soaps are most resiliant to poor storage. I assume softer, high fatted soaps are least resiliant, but I have no experience of them.

I almost always tend to place my soap tubs upside down on a paper towel overnight after using them to sort of "dry" them out.

Again, due to the inherent properties of soap, I'm not sure if that step is even necessary.

 

[Hak.1963]

I have never experienced any rancidity in my soaps, not even in the soaps I have found in second hand stores when I have bought old razor/grooming kits with original soap sticks.
When I lather my softer soaps/croaps I take an almond size bit of it and put it in my shaving bowl, pour a few drops of water on it and then lather from the bowl, never from the tub.

 

[abies]

Definitely, but not with shaving soaps. A couple of times that I can remember offhand. They weren't even that old, relatively speaking.

It probably depends on the quality and nature of ingredients going into the soaps, and the presence of any kind of mitigating antimicrobial ingredients. My impression from experience is that the latter can go a long way, even when they're not modern synthetic antimicrobials.

 

[The Blackadder]

I have never experienced any rancidity in my soaps, not even in the soaps I have found in second hand stores when I have bought old razor/grooming kits with original soap sticks.
When I lather my softer soaps/croaps I take an almond size bit of it and put it in my shaving bowl, pour a few drops of water on it and then lather from the bowl, never from the tub.

This

I guess probability is lower if you avoid introducing water in the tub

 

[RicoSuave]

I have never experienced any rancidity in my soaps, not even in the soaps I have found in second hand stores when I have bought old razor/grooming kits with original soap sticks.
When I lather my softer soaps/croaps I take an almond size bit of it and put it in my shaving bowl, pour a few drops of water on it and then lather from the bowl, never from the tub.

Your method sounds like it would most definitely ideally preserve a soap.

The only problem I have with it is WASTE. It's kinda hard to gauge how much one needs of any individual soap, as they all have their individual properties.

I prefer to lather DIRECTLY from the tub, for about 30 seconds, or until I feel that the brush has been sufficiently "loaded."

 

[The Blackadder]

Your method sounds like it would most definitely ideally preserve a soap.

The only problem I have with it is WASTE. It's kinda hard to gauge how much one needs of any individual soap, as they all have their individual properties.

I prefer to lather DIRECTLY from the tub, for about 30 seconds, or until I feel that the brush has been sufficiently "loaded."

I 100% guarantee you’ll waste less soap scooping. Some people get to even 5 grams per shave loading directly from the tub, when in my experience 2 grams is more than enough. I’m a bit of obsessive with precision, so I got a cheap jewelry scale

 

[Hak.1963]

Your method sounds like it would most definitely ideally preserve a soap.

The only problem I have with it is WASTE. It's kinda hard to gauge how much one needs of any individual soap, as they all have their individual properties.

I prefer to lather DIRECTLY from the tub, for about 30 seconds, or until I feel that the brush has been sufficiently "loaded."

When I shave, I always do a three pass shave on my face and a two pass shave on my head.
An almond sized piece of croap is just about right for me, some croaps give more lather than others, then I use the excess to wash my face and skull after the shave.
I cram out the rest of the soap from the brush, wash my face and skull with it and let the soap sit as an after shave balm while cleaning my razor, my brush and my bowl, and then rinse it of.

 

[blethenstrom]

Rancidity in soaps is due to two things. Water in the soap. Water is a breeding ground for bacteria and mold. This is the reason why creams have a shorter life than a hard shave soap. The second reason is un-saponified oils/fats that go rancid. Oils/fats do go bad over time. What I mean with un-saponified oils/fats is left over oils/fats that was not consumed by the lye during the soap making process. The reason there is leftover oils/fats is to make a less drying soap and also to build in a safety margin to make sure all lye has been consumed. If lye is left the soap would be caustic and very harsh for the skin.

Having said all this soap take a good long time to go bad. Especially harder soaps. The reason is the alkaline environment. Normal lye soap has a pH of about 8-10 and bacteria and mold does not necessarily like this alkaline environment. Just like mentioned shave soap can last years, decades without problems. Shave creams is where I would be a bit more careful. Now most shave creams do contain preservatives to counteract this.

Personally I never put the lid on a shaving soap without it being completely dry. This eliminates the water issue. Creams I would just use regularly and not store for years and years.

 

[RicoSuave]

When I shave, I always do a three pass shave on my face and a two pass shave on my head.
An almond sized piece of croap is just about right for me, some croaps give more lather than others, then I use the excess to wash my face and skull after the shave.
I cram out the rest of the soap from the brush, wash my face and skull with it and let the soap sit as an after shave balm while cleaning my razor, my brush and my bowl, and then rinse it of.

Damn if that isn't EFFICIENT!

 

[RicoSuave]

Rancidity in soaps is due to two things. Water in the soap. Water is a breeding ground for bacteria and mold. This is the reason why creams have a shorter life than a hard shave soap. The second reason is un-saponified oils/fats that go rancid. Oils/fats do go bad over time. What I mean with un-saponified oils/fats is left over oils/fats that was not consumed by the lye during the soap making process. The reason there is leftover oils/fats is to make a less drying soap and also to build in a safety margin to make sure all lye has been consumed. If lye is left the soap would be caustic and very harsh for the skin.

Having said all this soap take a good long time to go bad. Especially harder soaps. The reason is the alkaline environment. Normal lye soap has a pH of about 8-10 and bacteria and mold does not necessarily like this alkaline environment. Just like mentioned shave soap can last years, decades without problems. Shave creams is where I would be a bit more careful. Now most shave creams do contain preservatives to counteract this.

Personally I never put the lid on a shaving soap without it being completely dry. This eliminates the water issue. Creams I would just use regularly and not store for years and years.

See, I knew there would be some "chem geek" out there with a great explanation to my query (even if I had to read it twice! ). Thanks, bud!

Got one more for ya, "professor" (or anyone else with the answer) - isn't RANCIDITY caused by the breakdown of fat "molecules" (?), over time or by overuse, rather than mold or bacteria?

 

[abies]

See, I knew there would be some "chem geek" out there with a great explanation to my query (even if I had to read it twice! ). Thanks, bud!

Got one more for ya, "professor" (or anyone else with the answer) - isn't RANCIDITY caused by the breakdown of fat "molecules" (?), over time or by overuse, rather than mold or bacteria?

Yes, rancidity is due to fat oxidation.

I've had unopened dry bars of soap go rancid, so I'm not entirely sure that water is necessary (although I'm sure excessive water contributes to problems too).

When I've experienced it it's been soaps that seem to be superfatted, without any kind of preservative.

 

[EclipseRedRing]

I have always loaded my damp brush directly on the puck in it's bowl and then proceeded to face lather. During and after the shave I wipe off any left over lather and leave the soap to dry for several hours or overnight. In days gone by I suspect that most soaps were intended to be used continually, shave after shave, and thus to be used up in a few months, rather than in a rotation of soaps lasting much longer. Many soaps were originally supplied in bowls or containers with loose fitting lids, or with no lid at all which further aided drying; few, if any had air tight or screw on lids. Tabac has had loose lids since it's introduction in 1959 and many of my other pucks such as Yardley, Shulton, Goya, Cussons, Potter & Moore, Roger & Gallet, also have lids which are not air tight. Some of the Yardley lids are tighter depending on the specific bowl shape and if the bowl is plastic or wooden. I wonder if the era of ordering soaps, often softer soaps, by mail has in part ushered in the era of screw on lids and thereby increased the occurrences of soaps going bad.

 

[blethenstrom]

Yes, rancidity is due to fat oxidation.

I've had unopened dry bars of soap go rancid, so I'm not entirely sure that water is necessary (although I'm sure excessive water contributes to problems too).

When I've experienced it it's been soaps that seem to be superfatted, without any kind of preservative.

Yes water is not needed. It is the superfat left over fat/oil that go bad. It is the oil/fat that breaks down. Certain oils/fats go rancid quicker than other. Grapeseed oil, Peanut oil are a few that go rancid quicker. In soap making circles that is referred to DOS (Dreaded Orange Spots) which is a sign of that it has gone rancid.

 

[blethenstrom]

I wonder if the era of ordering soaps, often softer soaps, by mail has in part ushered in the era of screw on lids and thereby increased the occurrences of soaps going bad.

Softer soaps does not necessarily mean that a soap has more water. Of course creams in tubes do have more water. Softer soap, like artisan soaps means that they used a dual lye process. Dual lye process yields a softer more easily lathering soap. dual lye uses both sodium hydroxide(NaOH) and potassium hydroxide(KOH). The ratio of these will to a large extent control how soft a soap will be. The higher ratio of potassium hydroxide, the softer the soap. You can make a potassium hydroxide only soap and you will end up with a very soft soap, depending on the oils/fats used. Bath bars are made with only sodium hydroxide and will yield the hardest, longest lasting bars. However, a NaOH only shave soap might be challenging to lather easily.

The only difference between a hard shave soap and a croap is the ratio of NaOH and KOH.