Question for Vietnam Vets or other history teachers/military experts...

[jbp84]

So FMJ won't fly, but Country joe will? LOL


If you'd like me to look out any further bits I have a stack of stuff from an SASR guy in vietnam

Tom

I know most parent's wouldn't be too happy with my showing FMJ because of the language and material. Like I said, I'm a student teacher. It's like an apprenticeship teaching experience done through the university. I'm not sure if there's something similar in Australia or not. Once I'm in my own classroom and not a student I'll be able to get away with a lot more, and I would love to do a unit on Vietnam and culture (music, movies, TV, etc.). Some of the documentaries I've shown, about Vietnam and other time periods, have lots of swearing and bloody/violent images but I can justify them more since they're "real", not "realistic" like FMJ.

I would love any and all pictures you have. If/when I use them in class, whether for a lecture or an assignment, I'll share what I'm doing so you can have final approval. I've already PM'd a few people about using things they've shared in my class. If people are going to share stuff with me and open up, the least I can do is make sure their words/pictures/stories are used correctly and respectfully.

 

[jakespoppy]

I was there.
.......When I got home, the treatment was pretty bad. It seemed like all of the people my age thought we were all abunch of crazy criminals or something.
I felt really bad. I remember one VA job counselor told me not to tell anyone that I had been to Vietnam, when I was going for a job interview.........

Last week, in a large theatre on a cruise ship, all vets were asked to stand and we were given a round of applause in appreciation for our military service. This has happened in other places in recent years. This public recognition still seems a little strange today, because in the 70's, just after Viet Nam, no one ever bothered to recognize veterans in public like this. Instead, most people seemed to think Viet Nam veterans were all likely to be nut cases suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome, so no one asked, and most vets just didn't bring up military service in conversations back then.

I think it would be difficult for your class to understand that perspective today. Particularly since, as others have pointed out, the height of our involvement in Viet Nam took place in a time in our country's history when such a great deal of other social and political upheaval was taking place, and our involvement in Viet Nam added to this turmoil. My adult daughter is fascinated by the passion for change that she sees looking back at this period of time. Passion that led to large, widespread public protests, student riots that included deaths on college campuses, even people leaving the country rather than serve in the military in a war they believed was wrong. Passion that was strongly reflected in the music of the times.

I don't know how to convey the passion of these times to your class, but then, hey, you're the teacher!

Good luck with your student-teaching. Just the fact that you're asking for ideas here is a good indication that you will make a great teacher!

 

[Paris]

http://www.virtualwall.org/iStates.htm


50,000 killed - over time, for some it becomes just a number.
Take the time - read the names - young men mostly in their 20's.

So you are teaching a class - you know we were never taught the US made mistakes. What the President did was always correct. Our fathers were the WW2 generations that saved the world. We thought we were following in their footsteps - we were wrong. TV news made the country numb to the killing - it was like a damn football game - we lost 100 today but they lost 300.

What finally ended the war - the Marines? The Army? Air Force? No, No, and No. It was people taking to the streets in protest. That along with when Walter Cronkite editorialized on the 6 o'clock news against the war.

What I learned as a Marine: In a free society it is not only our right to protest when we feel the government is making a mistake - it is our obligation. And I think that is something that should be passed on to your students. I might add - politically I am a conservative.

 

[SUMMERSRL]

...is that the war accomplished nothing that was worth the sacrifices that were made and the same thing could probably be said for all wars. But, given that I was a CO, what else could I say?

Unfortunately your assessment is so spot on. Many good men were wounded or died... and, for nothing. It was such a shame.

 

[The Nid Hog]

Unfortunately your assessment is so spot on. Many good men were wounded or died... and, for nothing. It was such a shame.

I don't know if it's within our power to say that it was all for nothing or that it accomplished everything. When I was a young Marine, I don't remember anybody ever going over our won-lost record with us. For my generation, we were there because we wanted to be. We were there to go where we were told to go. We honored those who went before us, who gave their lives and fought with courage. In WWI, in WWII, in the Banana Wars, in Korea, in Vietnam, in Beiruit. Some of them died in victory, some in defeat. Some in wars that would pass an objective analysis as a just war, others not.

Frankly, I don't know what kind of consolation it is for you to die in the mud or the sand or the snow, thousands of miles from your home and your loved ones, knowing that people will reflect on it as a just war or one that was profoundly mistaken, whether it will go down in history as a W or an L. Whatever thoughts are with you in that moment are probably of those who are around you or those you left behind. Maybe it's just about how badly it hurts. I'm glad that I never learned that, and I'm deeply saddened that some of my friends did. But I could never say that those deaths were for nothing. They were most definitely, most certainly for something.

I am far from conservative and I do not think that we should mutely fall in behind the wars that our government tells us we should wage. I think that as citizens we should do whatever we possibly can to prevent foolish and unjust wars. But I would never say that these brave Marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen died for nothing.

 

[jbp84]

http://www.virtualwall.org/iStates.htm


50,000 killed - over time, for some it becomes just a number.
Take the time - read the names - young men mostly in their 20's.

This sums up, I think, what I'm trying to do in the class with this unit, and why I went to the boards and asked my original question. I want the students in my history class to understand the war from the perspective of human beings, not just one more collection of dates and numbers that they think has no importance to their lives. Like you said, it turned into nothing more than a zero-sum game for some people. These kids (juniors, 16 and 17 years old) have the luxury of choosing to fight. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan don't affect their every-day lives. (Except for the kids who have families serving; about 15% of my students have parents who are in the Air Force at the nearby base.) They're not getting drafted, most of them don't have friends over there, they're not planning on going over themselves. I've asked them these questions. Other than a few ROTC kids, none of the 125 or so kids I teach each day are joining the military after graduation.

I think a good assignment with the website you posted is to have them research either a person killed from their hometown, or several people. Or maybe people from the county since only one name is listed for the town I teach in. I'd like to get them in class to stand up and read the names, where they were from, where they died, how old they were, etc. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Paris]

You sound like a great teacher.

 

[knlgskr]

An outstanding thread., thank you originator and those posting and thank you who have served and are serving. Air Force 1966-70 (did not serve in Viet Nam); DOD USAF 1971-2001.

1960 & 1962 Major General John Ruggles told us(myself, family, friends) that we would be facing a larger version of Korea in SEA and the results would be about the same; we would not attain a clear-cut victory as in WWs 1 & 2. and we would have learn different ways/methods of fighting. Our opponent had as much difficulty with Airmobile tactics as we had with Guerilla Warfare and they never really learned to counter Arc Light Tactics especially the use of anti-personnel bombs (Daisycutters) and penetration bombs against underground installations (visited what is/was left of Cu Chi tunnels in 2000). B-52, best way to break up an enemy Bingo game. He had returned from SEA in 1960 if my memory serves me correctly. I stayed in contact with him until he died in 1999. A good man who was also a good soldier; seldom said I, me, mine usually us, our, we.

My father and I discussed me being drafted after graduation from college in 1966 and thought trading 4 years for a greater chance of surviving was a better alternative than 2-3 with less chance. I was asked during basic/boot if I wanted out because of bad (flat) feet and told the Drs. that it was up to them but I would rather not have it said of me that I was a draft dodger/4F. COs have a right to their beliefs as long as they are sincere and not using their beliefs as a means avoid service but I personally know many who did and I do not respect them; some still think those of us who served were suckers/chumps but those who have served preserved their right to choose. I have seldom if ever been asked why I served but have heard many say why they did not. Would the Third Reich or Russia have allowed this? I served in the military and pay taxes because they are the dues I pay/paid for the priviledge of living in the USA; I have visited over 100 countries and have yet to find another with our diversity, freedom of choice, etc.; and what we take for granted for many isn't even wishful thinking.


In 1964 LBJ said that we could not win as in WW 2 the same type of victory in Viet Nam (have seen this in writing while employed by DOD). McNamara's micromanaging and the acquiescence of military leaders prevented any chance of a positive resolution as in WW 2. LBJ didn't have public support prior to commitment (cart before the horse) and that was a mistake. Did North Viet Nam have the right to invade South Viet Nam even if their government was corrupt? Would Ho Chi Minh have been a better alternative? Viet Cong, shortened version of Vietnamese Communist(s).

1968: Viet Cong destroyed as a cohesive fighting force and loss of local support from indiscrimate killing of civilians including Catholic Clergy on a large scale in many areas of SVN. North Vietnamese army badly damaged as a viable fighting force; took about 5 years for them to recover. CIA and other intelligence agencies relied too heavily on a double agent (they thought) who was in reality a Col. in North Viet Nam's intelligence service. Walter Cronkite said the "war" was lost almost as soon as he arrived in Viet Nam without adequate information. Did we win over there and lose over here?


Breakfast in Viet Nam, dinner in the "World"; not much time for adjustment; in the Old Testament the Israelite soldiers returning from a battle would spend a week isolated from the civilians to avoid this. Spent a lot of time in the MAC Air Terminal @ Kadena AB, Okinawa and had permission from my organization ( 9 SRW) to provide transportation if not available or long delayed and at my and others discretion provide a case of beer or whatever to those being reassigned to Okinawa or having a long layover enroute to wherever; everyone I served with over there thought it fitting and proper to do so. Encountering those who said they hated/opposed GIs/military, etc., said that a lot of good men and women fought, bled, died preserving their right to say what they did and have their opinions. Some said they couldn't care less and that it served them right and I told them that what went around could come around. Words seldom bother me but don't get physical; I am not violent but vicious.

Linebacker 2, NVN said they were two weeks from unconditional surrender but Nixon and Kissinger stopped the bombing for political reasons (saw the documents).

Thoughts today, wondered over the years if those who died as a result of our armed conflicts sometims died for nothing but have concluded that they did not. It seems throughout history every dispute of any magnitude is eventually settled by force of arms. Is this an integral part of the human race in general? Since June of 1950 has (Korean Conflict) the USA become "The Army of Planet Earth"? Sometimes I wonder (usually in jest) if the National Anthem of our planet might now be "Onward Christian Soldiers" especially those of the USA. Has there ever been a "good" ( perhaps better stated, a just war) or a "bad" peace/piece. Where/what would we be today if not for those who fought, bled, died? If we had not entered WWs 1 & 2, what language would Europe and perhaps the rest of the planet be speaking? German (optomist?), Russian (pessamist?) perhaps? What has the USA gained both positive and negative from the rest of the nations by our actions? Should we have done and keep doing this? Who will/would be willing to take our place if we ceased? Have all/most of our military leaders become politicians in uniforms? Will we continue to fight previous wars today? Is/has our current war/conflict become mainly urban and what is the best way to approach/fight it? Is there now or will their ever be a correct answer/solution to these question/problems?

What became of the Viet Cong? Many of them were "Boat People" expelled from Viet Nam by the North Vietnamese and many now reside in the USA.

 

[jbp84]

Gentlemen,

Thanks again for the ideas. I really appreciate hearing from the guys who were there or who were around back then.

So far we're a week (school week=5 days) into our unit. We've got about 13 more days left. I'd be more than happy to share what we're doing (PowerPoint lectures, assignments, primary source documents) with anyone who's interested. PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you what I have. Keep in mind, I'm trying to teach a bunch of 16 and 17 year-olds the Vietnam War in 3 weeks so some stuff might not be as detailed as necessary. I'm trying to get the major concepts across. So far the kids are pretty interested in it. They're not thrilled that I'm making them take a hell of a lot of notes, but I tell them we've got a hell of a lot of stuff to learn.

 

[SRock]

Gentlemen,

Thanks again for the ideas. I really appreciate hearing from the guys who were there or who were around back then.

So far we're a week (school week=5 days) into our unit. We've got about 13 more days left. I'd be more than happy to share what we're doing (PowerPoint lectures, assignments, primary source documents) with anyone who's interested. PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you what I have. Keep in mind, I'm trying to teach a bunch of 16 and 17 year-olds the Vietnam War in 3 weeks so some stuff might not be as detailed as necessary. I'm trying to get the major concepts across. So far the kids are pretty interested in it. They're not thrilled that I'm making them take a hell of a lot of notes, but I tell them we've got a hell of a lot of stuff to learn.

Glad to hear its going well so far. You have quite the daunting task in teaching such a troublesome war in only 13 days. Again, best of luck!