Possibly Bent Spine?

[Devonmoonshire]

I just got my McCoy & Sanders Monarch in the mail today and I fear something is terribly wrong, it does not seat center in the scales and as you can see in the pics below the blade does not lie completely flat on a planed flat stone. One side the heal is raised and the other side of the blade the toe is raised. Is there any way to fix a problem like this?


Etched Side:



Non-Etched Side


If the spine it bent as I fear it may be is there any way to repair it and maintain the integrity of the etching? I really like this razor and would like to get it up and running asap.

Sincerely;
Nate

 

[bluesman 7]

The razor appears to have a smile. What you are describing is perfectly normal and having a smiling edge lie flat on the hone is a geometric impossibility. Some of us really like smiles.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

The reason I think it may be bent is the offset in the scales, it is really bad. Here is a photo of the offset:



And here is the blade lying down:

View attachment 588233

 

[Avenolpey]

Just based on the even edge that is visible it does not look bent. I would not start removing a lot of steel. The tang might be bent. That can be rectified with a vise and drill bits. I think Doc posted that technique.

 

[rockviper]

From the last pic, bluesman 7 is correct. Your wonderful looking blade has a slight smile and the "not lying flat" observations is what is quite normal. I'm still figuring out the rolling-x stroke for honing, but I'm getting there.

 

[global_dev]

For sone a smiling edge is a plus, others breadknife it away.

If this was a rescale, its easy for blades to not sit right. A bent tang can sometimes be adjusted, but i dont think id try to bend the spine.

A smiling edge may compensate for other issues like warp ive seen discussed.

 

[Slash McCoy]

A little file work near the pivot inside the scales can steer the blade more toward the center, without drilling out the pivot hole or trying to bend the tang, both of which can occasionally end badly. I am not a fan of smileys but many guys are, and a properly honed smiley is quite nice to shave with. Try the sharpie test on the spine. If there are no skips in the shiny wear strip on the spine after 3 or 4 laps and both sides look similar, I think you have a pretty normal smiling razor. Honing a smiley is somewhat more challenging than a straight edge but anybody can learn how to do this reasonably well. It is good to have an old beater to practice with. Don't exaggerate the roll. You want to lift nose and heel just enough to hit the whole edge.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Thank you all so much for all of the advice. I sent it for a few trips across the C12 and it is definitely tree topping so the blades edge is somehow in excellent cutting condition. Sooooooo I guess I am going to just try and keep it as is and look for someone who might be able to re-scale it for a decent price and see if it is in fact the scales because I highly doubt that a razor this old has plastic scales which is what they look to be. Not sure, but that is how they look to me. If the balance is not off and the scales are indeed the problem then perhaps that will be a much less expensive fix than sending it out for a trueing and full restore.

Sincerely;
Nate

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thank you all so much for all of the advice. I sent it for a few trips across the C12 and it is definitely tree topping so the blades edge is somehow in excellent cutting condition. Sooooooo I guess I am going to just try and keep it as is and look for someone who might be able to re-scale it for a decent price and see if it is in fact the scales because I highly doubt that a razor this old has plastic scales which is what they look to be. Not sure, but that is how they look to me. If the balance is not off and the scales are indeed the problem then perhaps that will be a much less expensive fix than sending it out for a trueing and full restore. Sincerely; Nate

Well, you don't need to rescale necessarily. Just repin it in the old scales, after filing where needed, if the scales are not cracked, anyway. Just look at the tang and see which way it has to swing, that is, which scale the nose needs to go. Now look where the tang contacts the scales near the pivot, and see where material must be moved to allow the blade to swing that way. Just give those areas maybe 10 or 15 strokes of the file at a time, and test-pin it back together to check your progress. Size 0 Microfastener bolts work great for this. They are also a good source for washers. If you get the small pattern nuts, you can use them for permanent pinning. Or just cut and peen the bolt end as if it were a plain rod. Somebody posted an exceellent diagram illustrating where to file, if my description is unclear. Maybe somebody has a link cause I don't remember the thread name or anything.

 

[Avenolpey]

The 3 pin straightening technique was demonstrated this week on the new History Channel show "Forged in Fire". It was done on a crusader sword rather than a razor, but the technique is the same, just on a smaller scale with a razor.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

The 3 pin straightening technique was demonstrated this week on the new History Channel show "Forged in Fire". It was done on a crusader sword rather than a razor, but the technique is the same, just on a smaller scale with a razor.

I am definitely going to look that up because upon closer examination I have found a couple things that are the most likely culprits in this razor:

1: The Scales at the swivel point are visibly offset hence the uneven seating in the scales:



2: There actually is an ever so slight warp in the blade itself so I believe, (Correct me if I am wrong as I am still VERY New to Straight Razors), this slight of a warp can be overcome with a good round of bevel setting and a little careful spine manipulation with extra caution to NOT take too much wear on the spine while trying to even out the irregularity with grinding or with minimal heat while in a vice and a gentle twist to coax it the opposite way to reset it closer to true.

 

[bluesman 7]

That's a pretty nice razor for you to be learning this stuff on. I would recommend making the scales fit the razor on that one.

If you want to learn about changing the actual steel shapes you should pick up a few Gold Dollar 66s. They have plenty of geometry problems to play with and if you wreck the razor you can just throw it away.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

That's a pretty nice razor for you to be learning this stuff on. I would recommend making the scales fit the razor on that one.

If you want to learn about changing the actual steel shapes you should pick up a few Gold Dollar 66s. They have plenty of geometry problems to play with and if you wreck the razor you can just throw it away.

Oh I had three Cheap Hashir brand razors to practice on in the past week or so. I did confirm that the razor's blade is in fact bent, and since I intend to keep and use this razor for a very long time,(As I believe it to be very, very rare since there is barely even mention of it's patent registration ANYWHERE online). I managed to even out the spine with my bench grinder and some extremely careful and light passes against the spine area near the heel until I got the entire blade to sit flat on a freshly lapped stone. I have been working on it all day today and have gotten the bevel reset finally and taken up from 600, (needed for the rough edges on the spine from the grinder), and went up to 1200, then my C12K and I am currently lapping my Hard Ark for the finishing touches before I hit the strop. Once my SB Ark comes in I will give it another round of polishing with that stone as well. Eventually I will just get some new scales for it, I just have to find someone that makes them. These scales are completely shot to be honest. The lack of attention to detail in placing the swivel pin has rendered these scales "Unrepairable" so they will ultimately have to be replaced unfortunately.

 

[global_dev]

1200 to CNAT is a really big jump, hope it works out for you.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

1200 to CNAT is a really big jump, hope it works out for you.

Yes it is, and thus far I have gotten very good results with the Hashir blades. Smooth as silk shave with the first one I did. Hopefully this Beast will be revived just as smooth by the time I am done.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

So, after a good day of work I have brought this Monarch back to life with a progression as follows:

1: Analyze the warp and use bench grinder to adjust the spine.
2: 400 Grit smoothing of the newly ground spine for maximum evenness of edge.
3: 600 grit to start the bevel
4: 1200 grit Japanese red clay stone, (Might be higher than 1200, not truly sure what grit it actually is as I bought it over almost 18 years ago)
5: Soft Ark for a mid stone
6: Guangxi 12K Stone
7: Hard Ark with Smith's Honing Oil for finishing.
8: 50K Diamond Spray on a home made Duck Cloth Strop for refinement and polishing.
9: 200K Diamond Spray on an identical Duck Cloth Strop for extra polish and sheen.
10: Will run it on my Strop just prior to shaving tonight, (This will happen later on this evening)

Here are my Results:

 

[The Mick]

This pains me so so much! All that was needed was to apply a little opposite force to the scales while taping on the pin to center it. Instead you have done major damage to a blade that was in beautiful condition.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

This pains me so so much! All that was needed was to apply a little opposite force to the scales while taping on the pin to center it. Instead you have done major damage to a blade that was in beautiful condition.

I wasn't worried as much about the blade being centered in the scales as I was about it not ever being able to be honed due to the warp in the blade. I have had great success in the short time I have been working on my honing technique and this one was all sorts of out of whack, the edge was utterly unusable until I did this, now I got a baby smooth shave out of it last night after I finished my honing on it with the adjusted spine area. I know there are other ways of accomplishing straightening out the blade, unfortunately I do not have the tools to do it. I did however have the tools to make this adjustment. Trust me, it felt like I was cutting into my own flesh when I first touched it to the fine grinder wheel. All in all the damage is pretty minimal and other than cosmetics the razor now functions flawlessly. To me in this case that was the most important thing as although it is marvelous to look at in it's original condition, it is in the end a tool to be used and more than anything else, I wanted to use it like it should be used.

This is hopefully the most pain I will suffer in any razor I acquire in the future

 

[global_dev]

Interesting execution, some say just a tool.

Definitely can hone a warp without resorting to that type of grinding in the future if you want, just need the right technique and honing surface.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Interesting execution, some say just a tool.

Definitely can hone a warp without resorting to that type of grinding in the future if you want, just need the right technique and honing surface.

I agree, and hopefully my technique will be good enough should I ever come up against a warped blade again, if it is not, then I will definitely be content to just wait until I have the proper tools to fix the warp rather than resorting to this method. Hopefully as time goes by and I have honed it in the future the damage will become less and less visible. I know it will never be gone, but hopefully with each honing it will shrink.