not sharp enough

[papi]

If your straight is not sharp enough would you go to a 5k, 8k, or 12k to spruce it up? I have been going to my 12 k shapton on a regular basis and then stopping. It seems like I am getting better shaves each time. I never experienced only having to strop before each use. I have been going back to the shapton 12000 after each shave. I have been scrubbing a bit to get a complete shave. The edge on my razor under magnification is good. However, I have been noticing that between the nice smooth scratch pattern, there are deeper scratches throughout. I have learned to prep my stones continuously to achieve a better scratch pattern. Constantly cleaning the build-up and using an equal grit cleaning stone. This has helped that problem but not completely.

the second question: Is it imperative to use very light passes on a finial stone? I find that in order for the blade to come in contact properly, I need to use a little downward pressure especially because it seems that my shapton pro stones are kind of sticky, to say the least. Thanks for any suggestions. I am starting to understand why natural stones are the way to go, I can sense that they would react much better. Only a guess.

 

[cugel]

Usually, sticky = stop
Most, I would surmise, finish with very little pressure on the blade. So-called "weight of the blade" pressure. As my skills improve I go back to a razor previously honed and re-do it. From my reading, it seems a good edge will last for quite a few shaves (10+) before needing to go back to the stones. On the other hand, barbers used barber hones for a reason: a quick tune up before the next customer. I bet the more practice you get, the less you will have to go back to the 12k after each shave.

 

[Gamma]

I don't think barber hones were typically used between every shave. More like when the edge needed it. Their razors got re-honed frequently though.

I use Shapton Pro stones, I don't find them to be sticky. Smooth, hard, slick, slight texture, yes. Sticky - no.
I can feel some suction from a razor that has wide spine wear or bevel. It is not an indicator of being 'done'. Done, for me ,is when the edge no longer transmits feedback that tells me it is advancing, I get the sensation that I hit a plateau.

A well done edge should have some longevity. I should get through many shaves without 'scrubbing'.

If my razor needed tuning up every shave then I'd be convinced the bevel was done poorly and I'd go back to the 1k and get the bevel set correctly. Then I'd progress to finer grits.

Generally, on a 12k, I start off light and go lighter as the edge refines.

 

[Steve56]

If you’re having to hit the rocks every shave, something isn’t right. My guess is till too much pressure or stropping technique. Try looking at the edge after shaving and before stropping, then after stropping to see if you can narrow down what stage that the edge is deteriorating. Also try halving or quartering your pressure throughout the whole process and see if that helps. If it does, then cut it some more!

The Shapton Pro stones do tend to leave some coarser scratches behind though I never really thought that it affected the shave quality any. Of course I was and am finishing on JNats, but I could still see a few coarse striae here and there when using the Pro/Kuromaku stones. The Glass Stone has better graded grit.

Be glad to take a look at the razor and give you an edge if you want, for return postage. See if my edge holds up with only stropping.

 

[papi]

If you’re having to hit the rocks every shave, something isn’t right. My guess is till too much pressure or stropping technique. Try looking at the edge after shaving and before stropping, then after stropping to see if you can narrow down what stage that the edge is deteriorating. Also try halving or quartering your pressure throughout the whole process and see if that helps. If it does, then cut it some more!

The Shapton Pro stones do tend to leave some coarser scratches behind though I never really thought that it affected the shave quality any. Of course I was and am finishing on JNats, but I could still see a few coarse striae here and there when using the Pro/Kuromaku stones. The Glass Stone has better graded grit.

Be glad to take a look at the razor and give you an edge if you want, for return postage. See if my edge holds up with only stropping.

Thanks for the offer. I am at the beginning stages. The razor I am honing is not worth the postage. I will advance to the next razor that is made in Germany and is of better quality. There is a method to all of it. For instance, this razor started out with a good-sized chip and I learned a lot bringing it back. I have 7 others that I bought cheap in a lot. I can tell the difference between bad metal and good metal. I will save the best for last and learn as I go. In the lot was a very nice Wade and Butcher and I can see the difference between that and this one which is a Shapleigh and I can tell the metal is junk in comparison.
I am more curious when I ask questions and it comes down to learning from the answers and hitting the stones again. Im getting there slowly but sure. Thanks again.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“The edge on my razor under magnification is good. However, I have been noticing that between the nice smooth scratch pattern, there are deeper scratches throughout. I have learned to prep my stones continuously to achieve a better scratch pattern. Constantly cleaning the build-up and using an equal grit cleaning stone. This has helped that problem but not completely.”

Yes, a 12k edge should be near mirror. if you are seeing deep stria after the 12k you should determine if the scratches are coming from the 12k or if it is bevel setting stria that was never removed.

It is common for new honers to not completely remove bevel setting stria with the stones in the progression and when the finisher polishes away all the finer stria the deep bevel setting stria is revealed and the finisher gets blamed.

If it is the 12k make sure the stone is lapped flat and smooth and that the edges are beveled or rounded. If the edges are rough and you drag the bevel across the edge it will scratch the bevel.

How are you lapping the 12k?

If it is a glass stone, it can benefit from lapping with a higher grit stone than a diamond plate or 220 paper. I have been getting very good results using the 3k synthetic nagura that came with my 10 SG on Shapton Glass. You can use another 3-6k stone. using one end of the stone to smooth the 12k.

Lastly look straight down on the edge, if you see any shiny reflections, that is where the bevels are not meeting, microchips or deep stria.

I suspect it is deep bevel setting stria that was not removed. Once you have the bevels meeting fully, (No shiny reflections), spend some extra time on the stone that follows the bevel setter and ensure that you are removing all the deep stria, all the stria.

On each stone in the progression, it is ok to use pressure or circles to set a bevel or remove previous stria, but always follow up with light X strokes to lighten the stria and perfect the edge at each stone in the progression.

I always refresh each stone with some lite lapping, strop the razor on linen, I use firehose and on a clean, freshly lapped stone do a series of lite final finish laps to try and perfect the edge.

 

[papi]

I don't think barber hones were typically used between every shave. More like when the edge needed it. Their razors got re-honed frequently though.

I use Shapton Pro stones, I don't find them to be sticky. Smooth, hard, slick, slight texture, yes. Sticky - no.
I can feel some suction from a razor that has wide spine wear or bevel. It is not an indicator of being 'done'. Done, for me ,is when the edge no longer transmits feedback that tells me it is advancing, I get the sensation that I hit a plateau.

A well done edge should have some longevity. I should get through many shaves without 'scrubbing'.

If my razor needed tuning up every shave then I'd be convinced the bevel was done poorly and I'd go back to the 1k and get the bevel set correctly. Then I'd progress to finer grits.

Generally, on a 12k, I start off light and go lighter as the edge refines.

sticky was the wrong word to describe it. I have been re-honing again. I was using too much pressure therefore the stone was cutting excessively and causing a drag rather than being sticky. I am surprised at how a high-grit stone cuts as much as they do.
Whoever says that a higher grit stone does not sharpen but only polishes are not accurate in saying so.

I started using a slurry stone to bring up a slurry and it is helping along with lighter x strokes, especially on the 12K as you have mentioned. The stones are becoming smooth and slick as suggested.

Thanks for your explanations and tips. It is all a matter of technique and it can be more complicated than is expected at times. It pays off when a straight razor performs well. I'm getting closer. No pun intended.

 

[papi]

“The edge on my razor under magnification is good. However, I have been noticing that between the nice smooth scratch pattern, there are deeper scratches throughout. I have learned to prep my stones continuously to achieve a better scratch pattern. Constantly cleaning the build-up and using an equal grit cleaning stone. This has helped that problem but not completely.”

Yes, a 12k edge should be near mirror. if you are seeing deep stria after the 12k you should determine if the scratches are coming from the 12k or if it is bevel setting stria that was never removed.

It is common for new honers to not completely remove bevel setting stria with the stones in the progression and when the finisher polishes away all the finer stria the deep bevel setting stria is revealed and the finisher gets blamed.

If it is the 12k make sure the stone is lapped flat and smooth and that the edges are beveled or rounded. If the edges are rough and you drag the bevel across the edge it will scratch the bevel.

How are you lapping the 12k?

If it is a glass stone, it can benefit from lapping with a higher grit stone than a diamond plate or 220 paper. I have been getting very good results using the 3k synthetic nagura that came with my 10 SG on Shapton Glass. You can use another 3-6k stone. using one end of the stone to smooth the 12k.

Lastly look straight down on the edge, if you see any shiny reflections, that is where the bevels are not meeting, microchips or deep stria.

I suspect it is deep bevel setting stria that was not removed. Once you have the bevels meeting fully, (No shiny reflections), spend some extra time on the stone that follows the bevel setter and ensure that you are removing all the deep stria, all the stria.

On each stone in the progression, it is ok to use pressure or circles to set a bevel or remove previous stria, but always follow up with light X strokes to lighten the stria and perfect the edge at each stone in the progression.

I always refresh each stone with some lite lapping, strop the razor on linen, I use firehose and on a clean, freshly lapped stone do a series of lite final finish laps to try and perfect the edge.

You have explained a lot. I think everything you have said is something I need to work on. I was aware of some of it but not completely taking careful steps with all of it. I happen to be using Shapton Kuromaku stones and it's the first time I have used any stone over 3000 grit.

I was using too much pressure on the 12k stone and started using advice of low pressure to none.

I have been cleaning the 12k with a 6k king and then rinsing.
I flatten the stones with silicon carbide grit on glass and it is way too rough. I then use a lapping stone that is smooth.
I have come to the conclusion that honing a good edge takes a lot of care and effort not to contaminate each stone and that is what I have done. The conditions have to be completely free of any previous particles.
I am thinking of using a synthetic strop on the edge after each stone. I think you touched on that. Along with lapping and rinsing the stones more carefully.
The information and everything helps. I take my time with all of this and I take a break from it too. I will pick up with it starting fresh. Thanks

 

[JPO]

I am surprised at how a high-grit stone cuts as much as they do.
Whoever says that a higher grit stone does not sharpen but only polishes are not accurate in saying so.

Using slurry on a high grit synthetic stone can be like a double edged sword. Yes, they can cut really fast, but at the same time they are also creating issues at the apex. This "damage" is usually to big for the stone to clear up with just water.
For this reason you usually get better results just dropping down one or two steps in grit to get a clean apex and a flat bevel.
The slurry also creates some convexity.
Finishers can be used in creative ways, but when you have a good 5k and 8k i would use them. You don't need many strokes on an 8k or for a deeper refresh starting from a 5k.
You also only need one stroke with too much pressure on a soft synthetic finisher to set the edge back to where the finisher may struggle to bring it back.
For a refresh i would just go back to the 8k, and only to some light work on the 12k. You should not need to use more then 10-15 light strokes on the 12k after a 8k.
You will not be removing more material then if you slurry your 12k and do allot of laps.

If you want to spend more time on finisher i would suggest getting a natural stone. On synthetic stones you are done probably before you think the edge is done in most cases.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Compared to other Japanese stones the Shapton Pro 12K is really the equivalent of about a 7K stone. Shapton uses their own grit rating so 12K to 12K is not apples to apples.

IMHO the Shapton 12K, I have one too, is a very good set up for a final finisher. You can finish on one but it leaves a lot on the table and a true final finisher is a noticeable improvement.

If just finishing on the Shapton 12K, a few things to try…. One, it does have a creamy sometimes sticky slurry. Try thinning that down to finishing on straight water. Any swarf build up will slow cutting speed which is probably a good thing. Leave it on until done. Try a few final finishing pull strokes, maybe just one or two.

Be weary of stropping technique. Strokes should be very light with near zero pressure on the bevel. For me this took quite a while to understand why I was “erasing” good edges.

 

[papi]

Compared to other Japanese stones the Shapton Pro 12K is really the equivalent of about a 7K stone. Shapton uses their own grit rating so 12K to 12K is not apples to apples.

IMHO the Shapton 12K, I have one too, is a very good set up for a final finisher. You can finish on one but it leaves a lot on the table and a true final finisher is a noticeable improvement.

If just finishing on the Shapton 12K, a few things to try…. One, it does have a creamy sometimes sticky slurry. Try thinning that down to finishing on straight water. Any swarf build up will slow cutting speed which is probably a good thing. Leave it on until done. Try a few final finishing pull strokes, maybe just one or two.

Be weary of stropping technique. Strokes should be very light with near zero pressure on the bevel. For me this took quite a while to understand why I was “erasing” good edges.

I appreciate hearing and learning from your suggestions and that goes for all. It really is helpful. I have been guilty of too much pressure and not having the experience to know the difference at times. I am just learning the importance of stopping for the first time too.
Ironically is the fact that shaving with a straight razor is not difficult for me, after turning a chipped rusted blunt piece of metal into a razor that is working not too bad so far. Shaving is sort of 2nd nature.
Thanks, Mr. kooby

 

[Gamma]

sticky was the wrong word

Agreed

I am surprised at how a high-grit stone cuts as much as they do.
cutting and polishing are the exact same thing. Finer stones make finer scratches, and because those striations are finer they are closer together is more shallow. If/when all else was done right, the result is a reflective surface. Hence - polishing. But the action, of leaving striations, is identical to what coarser stones do - it's all simply scratching steel. A 1µm 12k stone will scratch, but exponentially less so than a 14µm 1k stone.

I started using a slurry stone to bring up a slurry and it is helping along with lighter x strokes, especially on the 12K as you have mentioned. The stones are becoming smooth and slick as suggested.

Typically, with razor finishing, slurry on finer synthetic stones becomes counter productive. A 12k Pro does not need slurry to do what it does. I know that stone well, spent a lot of time working on it; and it has always performed best when clean for me. Synth slurry doesn't break down or get finer. Synth slurry is not more of a lubricant than plain water. The idea is to let a refined edge glide over the stone's particles, not push them head first into a hodge-podge pile of them.

It is all a matter of technique

Technique is important, but the laws of physics apply. Logic and reason also factor in. How we do what we do matters a lot, but there are facts of life that matter just as much as technique.

and it can be more complicated than is expected at times.

It's only complicated when we complicate it. But many of us expect it to be easier than it is.
Honing is a craft and the learning curve is real.

 

[lightfoot]

With a set of gear like yours I’ll generally try to have the edge setup well on the 8K and maybe limit the work on the 12K to around 20 strokes or so especially on something like the Shapton 12K and then shave.

I might repeat this process a couple more times until either the edge feels right or that it’s more apparent that something else is off.

Certainly could be a bevel set issue or possibly that the temper of the blade could have been compromised especially if it’s a vintage blade that was put on a buffing wheel in an attempt to remove pitting.

These kinds of razors may have an unusual amount of polish and obvious evidence of pitting that was buffed out.

These razors often will never feel like they’re sharp enough leading one back to the stones only to find the same results. Like a hamster on a wheel ever running, but always remaining in the same spot…

 

[papi]

With a set of gear like yours I’ll generally try to have the edge setup well on the 8K and maybe limit the work on the 12K to around 20 strokes or so especially on something like the Shapton 12K and then shave.

I might repeat this process a couple more times until either the edge feels right or that it’s more apparent that something else is off.

Certainly could be a bevel set issue or possibly that the temper of the blade could have been compromised especially if it’s a vintage blade that was put on a buffing wheel in an attempt to remove pitting.

These kinds of razors may have an unusual amount of polish and obvious evidence of pitting that was buffed out.

These razors often will never feel like they’re sharp enough leading one back to the stones only to find the same results. Like a hamster on a wheel ever running, but always remaining in the same spot…

It is great to hear the specifics. All these good points that many have made, add up to a much better understanding. It saves me time and grief learning everything myself.
Much appreciated.

 

[papi]

Using slurry on a high grit synthetic stone can be like a double edged sword. Yes, they can cut really fast, but at the same time they are also creating issues at the apex. This "damage" is usually to big for the stone to clear up with just water.
For this reason you usually get better results just dropping down one or two steps in grit to get a clean apex and a flat bevel.
The slurry also creates some convexity.
Finishers can be used in creative ways, but when you have a good 5k and 8k i would use them. You don't need many strokes on an 8k or for a deeper refresh starting from a 5k.
You also only need one stroke with too much pressure on a soft synthetic finisher to set the edge back to where the finisher may struggle to bring it back.
For a refresh i would just go back to the 8k, and only to some light work on the 12k. You should not need to use more then 10-15 light strokes on the 12k after a 8k.
You will not be removing more material then if you slurry your 12k and do allot of laps.

If you want to spend more time on finisher i would suggest getting a natural stone. On synthetic stones you are done probably before you think the edge is done in most cases.

JPO, I used your great advice and have made progress. I still have to learn small details but I am making lead way. Thanks a lot.

 

[lightfoot]

It is great to hear the specifics. All these good points that many have made, add up to a much better understanding. It saves me time and grief learning everything myself.
Much appreciated.

One thing I didn’t to clarify in my post is that I might try to stay at the 8000 to 12,000 grit level for two or three cycles in order to better assess the edge condition before going to a lower grit level. Hope this helps.