Norton’s Grading System For Currently Mined Stones

[lightfoot]

Is anyone here on the forum aware of the criteria that Norton uses for their current production Arkansas stones? They seem to have a different grading system and or material source for their stones that are unique to their mining properties.

Their soft Arkansas stones seem to be markedly different than almost any other current vendor. The one that I have is impossibly hard to lap. I’ve never seen a soft Arkansas stone is hard to Lap as that one.

Their translucent stones seem to have a different pattern and texture that is unlike other producers as well.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[duke762]

I don't have any experience with new Nortons except the 8x3x.5 Surgical Black and identical Translucent I bought around 2015 which are exceptionally wonderful stones. I have noticed the appearance of some of the new Translucent stones don't look as homogeneous as the older stones do. The outward appearance seems grainy, for lack of a better word. I haven't noticed any patterning in newer Trans Arks I've seen pictures of but I keep one side of my 8x3 surgical polished as high as I can, so I can see the patterning inside of it. You can't see it when finished to 600 grit. Looks almost like wood grain under the surface. I love it!

I do have lots of experience with vintage Nortons and yes, their softs are different than most. They do push back at you while lapping more than other soft Arks I've lapped. Norton softs are exceptional in my opinion, much better than the cheap, cow print softs on the market. They seem to hold their surface better than most, and are more resistant to glazing than lesser stones.

Soft Arks are still novaculite, which is very hard and the word soft, refers to the density of the stone. There is really nothing soft about them and they hate to be lapped like other Arks. I've tried to lap badly dished softs and have given up on concrete and silica sand in frustration and went to the sand blaster to erode the high ends down to within lapping range.

I'm not aware of any changes to their grading system. In my opinion if your soft is hard to lap and says Norton on it, congratulations, you have a really exceptional stone! Enjoy!

 

[Gamma]

Nothing new to this.

Norton's Arks, everyone's Arks, when classed correctly have always varied in texture, hardness, etc. within their given class.
You could buy a soft ark that was nearly a Washita or one that was nearly a Hard Ark..

Going back to the 20s/30s this was also the case. When the Gov't stepped in and changed the 'ranks' of Arks hardness/class, it was still like that but the boundary lines moved and maybe made things worse. I have had pleny of Norton Soft Arks that were both visibly and tactically very nearly Washita and then some that could sub for a Hard Ark. Same for Hard Arks. You need to have had a very decent sample size of labeled stones across all eras to see this. Very old timers reminisce about choosing Arks based on feel, fingernail hardness tests, etc. when buying, not just relying on the name on the box.

Not surprisingly, Pike/Norton Washita had end labels calling out variances. You had to figure out the rest. People want Arks to be color-by-numbers stones and they just aren't ever going to be that and that is why, early one, they never got love in the SR community. Truth is, maybe you get lucky and Soft, Hard, Trans falls into a perfect set but that's not a given rule.

The pyramid honers couldn't make heads/tails out of using Arks so they dissed them pretty heavily. Plus, they weren't selling them in their state-run-press shop so there was no money to be made by promoting them. Facts.

I've been saying for a loooong time, but no one listens...
People buy a soft and a hard Ark and can't understand why they can't get a real 'progression' out of it. Partially, this can be because both stones are just barely on either side of the line separating them. Some Soft Arks are very hard, Some Hard Arks are pretty soft.

They're naturals, different patterns and textures are par for the course. Dan's has had Translucent Arks with many different 'looks' over the last decade and then some. Same for Nortons 8x3".

I had a Dan's black Ark that was just Hard, not a top-tier black. Was impossible to lap. Not sure if it should have been graded higher but the feels tells me that it could have been. In use it was nearly a finisher but not quite there for me. Maybe someone else wouild love it as a finisher though.
In line with that, I've read a geological test of a top-tire black Ark what showed it was 85% silica.Stone was an excellent razor finisher. So, it's not rally all just a numbers game.

Moral of the story is that it doesn't pay to make mountains out of molehills. They're natural stones and naturals will vary. Choose stones by performance, not labels, boxes, stamps, or whatever. There are and have been many different looks and personalities of all Arks since day one. Same with Jnats, Coticules, etc. Choose wisely.

 

[Bowmaker]

Where can I find government specifications for Arkansas stones?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Not sure about the lower stuff; but based on a few purchases 5 or so years ago of the Translucent arks from Norton... They still are fairly demanding of translucence... but they accept a lot of air pockets/gaps without downgrading a stone to a second or trashing it. My last few Translucent Arks from Norton looked like sprite... clear but full of bubbles.

 

[lightfoot]

I think it’s probably a balancing act of being selective with the material in terms of long term consistency and what’s actually available at any given time.
They seem to be picky for sure…

 

[Kyle89]

Not sure about the lower stuff; but based on a few purchases 5 or so years ago of the Translucent arks from Norton... They still are fairly demanding of translucence... but they accept a lot of air pockets/gaps without downgrading a stone to a second or trashing it. My last few Translucent Arks from Norton looked like sprite... clear but full of bubbles.

Watch, in 10 years the "sprite" variant will be valuable.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Where can I find government specifications for Arkansas stones?

Not exactly coming directly from government specifications, but here's a link that might help clarify things:

https://danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/.

Note that when the "past US Federal Government" grading system switched to the "current US Federal Government" grading system, the "hard" rating descended into the "soft" range, which means that Arkansas stones now marked as "hard Arkansas" are actually "soft Arkansas." I don't know when the change was implemented, but from what I've seen, Norton/Behr-Manning packaging followed the "past US Federal Goverment" grading system between soft and hard until the 1970s.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Not exactly coming directly from government specifications, but here's a link that might help clarify things:

https://danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/.

Note that when the "past US Federal Government" grading system switched to the "current US Federal Government" grading system, the "hard" rating descended into the "soft" range, which means that Arkansas stones now marked as "hard Arkansas" are actually "soft Arkansas." I don't know when the change was implemented, but from what I've seen, Norton/Behr-Manning packaging followed the "past US Federal Goverment" grading system between soft and hard until the 1970s.

I, for one, feel much safer knowing the federal government is busy protecting us from soft Arks from being labeled as hard Arks. The unrestricted use of “surgical black” would result in a “bloodbath” of unscrupulous sellers putting it on almost anything.

 

[Empire straights]

Not sure about the lower stuff; but based on a few purchases 5 or so years ago of the Translucent arks from Norton... They still are fairly demanding of translucence... but they accept a lot of air pockets/gaps without downgrading a stone to a second or trashing it. My last few Translucent Arks from Norton looked like sprite... clear but full of bubbles.

Those are the best stone for finishing knives. Lap them just into the bubble, then use a little pressure. Watch your fingers if you like them.

 

[Empire straights]

Watch, in 10 years the "sprite" variant will be valuable.

It is, just not finishing razors. You can do all of your mid work on one of those that you've "popped" the bubble with a knife. It would work on an old expire with good steel. Much like a llyn idwal or some washitas.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I, for one, feel much safer knowing the federal government is busy protecting us from soft Arks from being labeled as hard Arks. The unrestricted use of “surgical black” would result in a “bloodbath” of unscrupulous sellers putting it on almost anything.

Actually, it's the other way 'round, the federal government is allowing soft Arks to masquerade as hard Arks (i.e., the ones specifically labelled "hard Arkansas"). The irony here is that it is up to a scrupulous dealer like Dan's Whetstone to show how the lines are currently drawn in relation to past descriptions.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Actually, it's the other way 'round, the federal government is allowing soft Arks to masquerade as hard Arks (i.e., the ones specifically labelled "hard Arkansas"). The irony here is that it is up to a scrupulous dealer like Dan's Whetstone to show how the lines are currently drawn in relation to past descriptions.

Maybe they are just understaffed and under funded? We should ask.

 

[duke762]

Lots of cheap, barely useful Arks on the bay that I don't think were graded by anyone. Black Arks, supposedly hard, for cheap. The labor alone for cutting a quality stone would not allow them to be sold that cheap. But you can cut softer stones faster and keep the price down by throwing quality out the window.

I reviewed a set of 3, soft, hard and black, and they all were useless. Horrible in fact. Not fit for cutlery or garden tools. Buyer beware gentlemen.

Slice's comment on sprite looking Nortons is interesting. Maybe that's the graininess I see sometimes on the newer Trans Arks. I haven't handled one but they sure don't look as homogeneous as the vintage ones.