Need new water heater - brand recommendations

[Columbo]

I did not realize that tankless were more of a leak risk. Makes me wonder if a "smart" water meter monitoring system is worth the time and expense. Since it seems to be only a matter of "when" and not "if" a leak will occur.

I don't know whether to blame the architect or builder, but many homes in my neighborhood had the hot water heater tank located in the attic (good during summer when solar heating provides an efficiency boost) but increases the risk of water damage. I got lucky that a smoke alarm was located a few feet across on the ceiling underneath and it went off at 4am one morning. Who knew that a smoke alarm could do double duty as a water leak detector and wake up the whole house? When the local plumbing company offered to put a tankless unit in the crawlspace rather than a big tank back into the attic it was a no brainer decision. So while I dislike not being able to get a low flow rate of hot water (without prefilling the pipe and wasting water in between) I do like that water distribution is kept under the floor.

When the old plumber explained to me the heat exchanger model in these units, it all made sense. To get the water up to temp that quickly without a tank reserve (on demand), the materials need to be very conductive and limited in mass to quickly pass the heat into the water. And those thinner materials have to endure more severe thermal cycling than a conventional tank does.

As he was installing our new cast iron Weil-McClain boiler several years back, he also told me why they love the new super high efficiency boilers over the conventional cast iron ones. It's because they make a fortune repairing them. They apparently are more prone to break, and the sulphuric acid they produce eats everything up. Our cast iron model is a 30 year boiler at half the price, only a few points less efficient, and will still be going when I am gone. The only thing it's ever needed was a new expansion tank this year.

I don't understand why some of these units don't have stainless or at least copper-lined tanks. But then again, I do ... cost.

Leak alarms and auto shut off switches are a great last line of defense with these systems. I'd rather deal with 50 gallons in a perimeter drain then a 3/4 horse well pump running all night into a finished basement.

 

[Berwick12]

The quote from the plumber came in. $8780. To me that seems a tad high. I am all copper pipes. I asked to be kept on copper, that might be affecting the price. I don't mind sweating pipes,
apparently people have moved on to pex and other plumbing advancements. The one that he suggested is a condensing rinnai(RSC199IP)Minimum flow rate is .4 GPM. Which somebody mentioned before is a little bit high. I don't know if that's because this is a condensing unit or if it's because of the size. Anybody want to weigh in on if they think that's too high of a minimum flow rate and too high of an estimated quote.

Having said that trying to get a plumber out here was kind of hard. They all seem to ask the same question, if I was an existing customer. I said no, and then they seem to not want the new business. I only got in with these guys because of my neighbor worked with them. I had them come in just to do a checkup just so I could be in their system.

 

[Columbo]

The quote from the plumber came in. $8780 ...

Almost $9,000 for a water heater? That's nuts.

I know you are on the tankless wagon. But a 12-year tank model is under $1,000.

Pex is not an "advancement". It's just cheaper than copper.

 

[luvmysuper]

Almost $9,000 for a water heater? That's nuts.

I know you are on the tankless wagon. But a 12-year tank model is under $1,000.

Pex is not an "advancement". It's just cheaper than copper.

To be fair, also way easier to install or re-pipe.
And a manifold allows for easy control of flow to a group or even an entire run to a particular outlet.

 

[StillShaving]

The quote from the plumber came in. $8780. To me that seems a tad high. I am all copper pipes. I asked to be kept on copper, that might be affecting the price. I don't mind sweating pipes,
apparently people have moved on to pex and other plumbing advancements. The one that he suggested is a condensing rinnai(RSC199IP)Minimum flow rate is .4 GPM. Which somebody mentioned before is a little bit high. I don't know if that's because this is a condensing unit or if it's because of the size. Anybody want to weigh in on if they think that's too high of a minimum flow rate and too high of an estimated quote.

Having said that trying to get a plumber out here was kind of hard. They all seem to ask the same question, if I was an existing customer. I said no, and then they seem to not want the new business. I only got in with these guys because of my neighbor worked with them. I had them come in just to do a checkup just so I could be in their system.

It is not clear if this total includes adding a new propane tank + service lines, relocating the hot water "tank"/generation as compared to the old location, and/or possibly adding a recirculation loop to your home distribution line top improve efficiency. Otherwise, I would not expect that you are adding very much copper and installation of the tank itself should not be so complex or time consuming as cost that much in labor IMO.

I realize that good tradesmen are hard to find and in high demand, but I think one should get at least 2 quotes if not three. Otherwise you don't know if the quote is priced to drive you away or not.

For a vague data point alternative...which I hesitate to post as my memory is not precise and I don't want to imply that the youtuber does not provide good enough service to warrant it...but there is one youtuber that I enjoy watching who does small-to-large jobs for homeowners. From small jobs like installing a ceiling fan, to larger ones like replacing all the home's fascia+soffet (because to rot), or a whole bathroom remodel. He is transparent on his pricing and I think he gets roughly 2K per day AFAIK....and he targets the higher income parts of town, as they have the funds to pay and interested in remodeling. So take the price of your hot water heater and apply a nice hourly/daily rate in your area and you should get some idea of the cost. Of course, it will be higher than one might otherwise expect due to their insurance, licensing, potential for callbacks, taxes, etc.

 

[WVShaver]

I switched to electric tankless a couple years back and really like the benefits but also dislike the negatives already mentioned. If you go with an all electric model I highly recommend the Stiebel Eltron brand. I did a bit of research comparing it with the store brands and it was highly recommended.

This brand has 2 models I believe they were called Tempra & Trend. I forget which is the more premium of the 2 but it's the one I got and I'm glad I did for one main reason. Their premium one has a water flow reducer if it can't produce enough hot water in the winter instead of giving you colder water then the temperature is set for it will just reduce the flow. I still use an old 2.5 gpm shower head since I like it better then the newer 1.75 ones I've tried and in the winter time I do notice a very slight reduction in flow. Most other tankless heaters that can't produce enough hot water would reduce the temperature and you'd get a colder shower instead of reducing the flow.

I keep mine set at 118F. At the end of a shower I like to turn the cold water most of the way off and let the really hot water relax my muscles. Something I could never do with a tank heater because by the end of a 10 minute shower the water had already cooled enough to not allow a temperature increase like this. But as others have said 110F is probably a good temperature if you don't want to add cold water to your shower.

My unit is the 24kw model and only uses (2) 50 Amp breakers. This was the largest I felt safe using with a 200A main. In retrospect I believe the next size up would have worked just fine unless you are running a lot of electrical devices at once like electric Furnace, cook stove/oven, dryer etc. In the winter the ground water here can get pretty cold so that is also a key point to remember. Most winter days are around 20-35F but sometimes it dips down to 0F. If your in a warmer climate the 24Kw would be even better then here.

My unit cost around $600, the breakers and wire about $100. I got brass ball valve that I put before and after the unit so that I could turn the water off and flush it out since the ball valves have dual ports which lets me turn the regular flow off but use the other ends to flush the unit. This was around $60 on Amazon. I also put a 3m Filter before it since the water is a little hard around here. Another $75 or so. Total cost was around $800-850 installed but I did the work myself.

Unless you have to repipe your whole house I don't think you'd have more then $1000-1500 in materials so the rest is just labor. The gas units seem to cost a little more so would likely be closer to the $1500 mark. It's crazy how much people get for labor. I guess there just aren't enough tradesmen working anymore.

One upgrade I would like to make in the future is to put a Point of Use (POU) tank under my bathroom sink for shaving. As mentioned by many others you have to have the sink on at least .5 GPM with my unit and it takes 20-30 seconds to get truly hot water so I have to leave the hot water running for shaving or anything else that requires hot water. Those Point of Use tanks are little 1-2 gallon tanks that go under your sink and act like a small tankless heater to give you instant hot water so you don't have to wait for the tankless heater to get water to your sink. Some are tankless but I believe the ones that hold 1-2 gallons would be a better option. They are fairly cheap and can be had for around $200 and many plug into 110v outlets.

Your other option is a recirculation pump but to me that is a waste of energy. It turns your water heater on every so often to heat the water up in the pipes and keep it hot all the time for you. I'm not sure how much energy it uses in a month but I think the small point of use tanks would be much cheaper in the long run since they wouldn't use much if anymore energy then the tankless by itself.

If you do decide to stick with a tank heater defintely follow the advice of a previous poster who said to change the anode rods every 3-4 years. My tank heaters would last about 5-6 years before going out and that's when I decided to research everything and jumped on the tankless bandwagon. But at the same time I learnt if you replace your anode rod every few years your tank won't be ate alive and you may very well get 20-30 years or more out of it just by replacing the anode rod and replacing the heating elemets if/when they go bad.

Sorry for the long post. And I hope you find something your happy with. Good luck!