Learning coti and jnat

[w squared]

I'm looking at my first natural stone purchase in the next few months - mostly because I've decided to grow what I'm sharpening from just knives to include straight razors.

I have a good range of synthetic water stones with a 150 Naniwa "Lobster" at the bottom of the range, going up to an 8K Kitayama and a 10K Naniwa Chosera (although the 10K is a TINY stone on the Edge Pro that I don't use much anymore).

Based on what I've seen, watched, and read, it seems like a natural stone of some sort is likely to yield an even finer shave than what I'd achieve with the Kitayama and a pasted strop. I also like the idea of learning a new sub-set of skills when it comes to using stones.

I see a few options:

- A relatively hard and fine jnat. Hopefully something that is "razor friendly"....but I know that each stone is different.
- Gokyumyo synthetic - maybe the 15K? (about the same price as a reasonable size jnat from what I can see)
- Coticule
- French "Black Shadow"
- Slate from "Imperia La Rocca"

I'd value any suggestions that you have about which direction may work well. I don't foresee taking any of my current knives beyond the 8K Kitayama and onto a natural stone...but you never know what sort of ridiculous idea I may come up with once I've spent a bit of time working with a stone.

 

[Wid]

In my order of preference

1. Coticule
2. Jnat

 

[Herrenberg]

I'm looking at my first natural stone purchase in the next few months - mostly because I've decided to grow what I'm sharpening from just knives to include straight razors.

I have a good range of synthetic water stones with a 150 Naniwa "Lobster" at the bottom of the range, going up to an 8K Kitayama and a 10K Naniwa Chosera (although the 10K is a TINY stone on the Edge Pro that I don't use much anymore).

Based on what I've seen, watched, and read, it seems like a natural stone of some sort is likely to yield an even finer shave than what I'd achieve with the Kitayama and a pasted strop. I also like the idea of learning a new sub-set of skills when it comes to using stones.

I see a few options:

- A relatively hard and fine jnat. Hopefully something that is "razor friendly"....but I know that each stone is different.
- Gokyumyo synthetic - maybe the 15K? (about the same price as a reasonable size jnat from what I can see)
- Coticule
- French "Black Shadow"
- Slate from "Imperia La Rocca"

I'd value any suggestions that you have about which direction may work well. I don't foresee taking any of my current knives beyond the 8K Kitayama and onto a natural stone...but you never know what sort of ridiculous idea I may come up with once I've spent a bit of time working with a stone.

Lots of ways to go here. Personally, I'd probably go Les Lat coticule, just because I'd get a razor finisher on one side, and more conventional fun coticule adventures on the other side. Or a nice razor JNat koppa from a trustworthy source.

 

[Frank Shaves]

If you stumble upon a beautiful, hard Nakayama kiita buy it. Meanwhile, while you are waiting to find your Nakayama, buy a La Veinette Coticule from Ardennes-Coticule (AC) that is good for finishing razors. You should have the first stone within two weeks. AC normally ships stones on Friday.

 

[ArtVandelay123]

I really want to get into Jnats, but I've been using Coticules exclusively for a while.
As suggested above, I'd second getting a La Veinette. It always delivers smooth and sharp edges in a combination that I rarely find in most other Coticule veins tbh.

 

[Gamma]

I see a few options:

There are a lot of options. And many different ways to use them. I always tell anyone looking to invest in stones to try edges honed on the stones they are interested in before considering buying anything.
The way of the internet is to ask other people what they like and choose from the popular vote.
But it makes more sense to buy what YOU like.

It's also important to factor in whether or not you are going to like honing on the stone. Take the Gokumyo stones - any of them - to me, the feedback feels like I am running a blade over a block of plastic. They make things sharp but I don't like using them. If the honing experience doesn't matter to the user then that's their preference. Given the costs involved, it makes sense to weigh in everything.
For example, I think the Naniwa Fuji 8k is probably a bit more caspable than the Naniwa Jyunpaku 8k but I got rid of the Fuji because I didn't like the feedback all that much. Has that plasticky feel....not as bad as a Super Stone or a Gokumyo but it's there. The Jyunpaku feels like a stone to me.

A good idea is to have some razors, or maybe just one razor (to remove variables) sent out to be honed on/finished on different stones. That way you'll have an idea about what to expect from any given stone.

 

[w squared]

Thank you all for the excellent input.

There are a lot of options. And many different ways to use them. I always tell anyone looking to invest in stones to try edges honed on the stones they are interested in before considering buying anything.
The way of the internet is to ask other people what they like and choose from the popular vote.
But it makes more sense to buy what YOU like.

It's also important to factor in whether or not you are going to like honing on the stone. Take the Gokumyo stones - any of them - to me, the feedback feels like I am running a blade over a block of plastic. They make things sharp but I don't like using them. If the honing experience doesn't matter to the user then that's their preference. Given the costs involved, it makes sense to weigh in everything.
For example, I think the Naniwa Fuji 8k is probably a bit more caspable than the Naniwa Jyunpaku 8k but I got rid of the Fuji because I didn't like the feedback all that much. Has that plasticky feel....not as bad as a Super Stone or a Gokumyo but it's there. The Jyunpaku feels like a stone to me.

A good idea is to have some razors, or maybe just one razor (to remove variables) sent out to be honed on/finished on different stones. That way you'll have an idea about what to expect from any given stone.

Ensuring that I'm using stones that I ENJOY using is very much central to why I'm asking questions. If I'm only interested in having sharp things for the purpose of cutting or shaving, I can drop off my straight razors and even my best Japanese knives to a local shop, and they'll do a first-rate job of sharpening and honing for me.

I also hear you loud and clear in terms of feedback. I once put far too many miles on a Naniwa Chosera 400 while fixing a nakiri that my former brother-in-law had decided could be used like a cleaver when he was jointing a chicken. Not because I didn't have a coarser stone....but because I could feel what I was doing with the Chosera.

 

[Steve56]

I understand Rick’s post, but for me I put JNats and coticules as equals, provided that you have the best of each, which is a journey into itself, and not for the faint of wallet. I think that it is easier to source a better JNat than coticule, simply because that there was more JNat material produced. The percentage of fine razor stones of both is about the same. Normally, the good JNat material would rare, but in a twist of fate, Nakayama produced arguably the best razor stones, was one of the largest, and closed the latest, about 1964. There is still a LOT of Nakayama material in storage.

Both cotis and JNats can have tremendous range which is part of the attraction. With the right stones, one-stone honing is very much possible with either, though I prefer to still set the bevel on a flat synth.

 

[Gamma]

Nakiri, chicken, cleaver...
Ugh...

Yeah, enjoying the honing sensation is important to me also... a mentor of sorts constantly relates to what he calls 'that good sharpening feeling'. and for me, without it, there is no point. Everyone is different though, someone likes Coticules, the next guy thinks they aren't finishers, someone likes Arks, the next guy can't get an edge off one. And so on.
Way back I bought an edge done on diamond paste, and another on a Coti. Then one done Coticule/Escher... and so on.
I remember a guy arguing with me about edges finished on Chromox because I didn't like it... he insisted I wasn't using it correctly because, he said, "everyone likes it".
So I am a big fan of the "try stuff, see what you like" mindset.

 

[Empire straights]

I'm looking at my first natural stone purchase in the next few months - mostly because I've decided to grow what I'm sharpening from just knives to include straight razors.

I have a good range of synthetic water stones with a 150 Naniwa "Lobster" at the bottom of the range, going up to an 8K Kitayama and a 10K Naniwa Chosera (although the 10K is a TINY stone on the Edge Pro that I don't use much anymore).

Based on what I've seen, watched, and read, it seems like a natural stone of some sort is likely to yield an even finer shave than what I'd achieve with the Kitayama and a pasted strop. I also like the idea of learning a new sub-set of skills when it comes to using stones.

I see a few options:

- A relatively hard and fine jnat. Hopefully something that is "razor friendly"....but I know that each stone is different.
- Gokyumyo synthetic - maybe the 15K? (about the same price as a reasonable size jnat from what I can see)
- Coticule
- French "Black Shadow"
- Slate from "Imperia La Rocca"

I'd value any suggestions that you have about which direction may work well. I don't foresee taking any of my current knives beyond the 8K Kitayama and onto a natural stone...but you never know what sort of ridiculous idea I may come up with once I've spent a bit of time working with a stone.

Coticule or jnat.

 

[Eshebert]

I have not been honing Razors long but I had experience with Synthetics (King & Shapton) and Arks (Soft Ark) from a knife a making hobby. When I made the swap to Straight razors I purchased China ?K, a Jnat Kita Koppa and a old Coti combo. It was probably a mistake doing too much at one time. If I had to do it all over again I would pick one or the other. Pretty quickly I learned to go from 1.5K to 5K to the Jnat and or the Coti and get a shaving edge. I was using a diamond slurry with both, slowly diluting down to running water. I was very much hit or miss but hit more times than I missed. I added Coti slurry stone, a 8K Shapton and then a Black Ark. At that point I put away the JNat (and china stone).
It was just too easy to work to 8K, go Coti on water and finish on the Ark for such a great shaving edge. I could hit on every razor I put my hands on and I went thru about 40 in 2 months. I almost drove the old lady crazy but that's the only way I learn, hands on, obsessive and relentless. I had to know I could repeat it, and I had to know I could do it on different type razors. I will admit, I like to hone but I almost reached burn out. The good news is I just picked up a larger Jnat and a Mikawa Nagura set. Oh and a French La Lune, and possibly another Coticule, lol. Excited to try something new. But I feel more sleepless nights and ebay razors in my future.

My advice is pick a method and throw yourself at it. Stay off Youtube or any forum for a month or so, or until you feel you go it. Then go back to your normal social media routine. These boards are a great resource. I think that they can cause doubt or confusion when you get aggravated and desperate. There are too many ways to skin a cat and folks like to say their way is the best way, and that way may not be your way. You will not get anyplace trying to duplicate Jim or Joe. You must find a way that's natural for you, learn to feel the blade and stone interaction at the Apex. When you get it right, test yourself to repeat it . When you get it wrong, don't give up, regroup and go back to bevel set. Honing is just like sports, or music. Repetition builds muscle memory.

Have fun and don't let any Cats on social media or forums discourage you. Good luck friend.