Knives, For Cooking That Is

[tam.audio]

Okay, so it looks as though I'll likely purchase a chef's knife all by its lonesome. What do you guys do for storage since there is no block? I'm assuming they come with some sort of blade cover which would allow it to live nicely in a drawer, no?

 

[Dennis]

Okay, so it looks as though I'll likely purchase a chef's knife all by its lonesome. What do you guys do for storage since there is no block? I'm assuming they come with some sort of blade cover which would allow it to live nicely in a drawer, no?

I use a magnetic knife rack from here.

 

[Crazy Dave]

They sell blocks separately. You can also find them in thrift stores.

Dave

 

[mainaman]

Some knives come with saya, but they are the more expensive and high end ones. You can also purchase saya separate, from korin for example

 

[Fnord5]

This works absolutely amazing if you do not have a block.
You cannot pull the blade out unless you open it.

 

[Lara Croft]

I use a knife sleeve and a knife bag for most of my knives.

 

[tsmba]

I use a block, but anything that protects the blade is acceptable.
Has anyone heard of "Cutco" knives? I posted a thread about the Modern Marvels "Sharp Tools" episode the other night:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=105445

This brand is mentioned as being "the sharpest kitchen knives", which seemed to be a wild claim. It was interesting to see their testing methods, but I think their definition of "sharpest" is open to debate.

 

[Mr. Clean]

...Has anyone heard of "Cutco" knives? ....

See posts #29 and #57 in this thread.

 

[Jasonian]

It's nice to know that a quote can be taken out of context and used as a custom user title.

I'll take it.

 

[RazorDingo]

I'll confess to more than a little skepticism over some of this Japanese knife talk.

Don't get me wrong: I certainly appreciate the incredible craftsmanship, and indeed almost mythical sharpness that some of these knives possess.

But with that said: Its just a knife.

I've had a set of Wusthof kitchen knives for about fifteen years now. I guess I get them sharpened every year or so. Run them over a steel now and then. I paid about $150 for the set, and I think I've added a couple of "open-stock" items over the years.

I've NEVER felt that my cooking has been compromised, that there was some task I couldn't accomplish, or could have accomplished better with some other sort of knife.

I'm not a Sushi chef. In fact, I pretty much leave the whole "raw fish surgery and preparation" thing to the professionals.

About six months ago, I was cleaning up in my kitchen, with the garbage disposer running - when a Wusthof paring knife slipped out of my hands, and slithered, tip first, down the drain. Clang...

Result: A horribly bent, and effectively ruined paring knife. But not a financial catastrophe: I replaced it for about $20.

 

[ouch]

I'll confess to more than a little skepticism over some of this Japanese knife talk.

Don't get me wrong: I certainly appreciate the incredible craftsmanship, and indeed almost mythical sharpness that some of these knives possess.

But with that said: Its just a knife.

You're absolutely correct- it's just a knife. It is, however, a much better knife.

I bought a set of Henckels Four Stars in the mid-80's, and they served me well for a long time. I must have added every knife they sell to the set- santoku, hollow ground ham slicers, you name it. They're tough, well finished, and good looking, just like the Wusthofs. They do, however, have fairly soft steel. That's why you can use a steel on them- soft steel tends to roll at the edge and needs constant realignment. They also don't hold an edge very long.

When I first tried Japanese knives, I was probably far more sceptical than you are. After all, I didn't buy my German knives on the cheap. I thought "how can the Japanese knives be better?" After I tried them, I never used the Henckels again. I have either sold them, given them away, or tucked them into a drawer. On the rare occasion I pick one up, it feels like a shovel.

Now the Japanese knives are certainly more delicate than the French/German/American ones, but that's a small price to pay for the superior performance. They have models especially designed for harder tasks. A western deba makes a German chef's knife seem as substantial as a letter opener. You also need to alter your technique a bit to accomodate the sharper blade- you may find your knife "sticking" to the cutting board. As for sharpening, every knife needs to have that addressed, and most of the guys here already are up to their necks in sharpening stones.

Knives aren't just for sushi. Slice a tomato with a sharp knife, and you just can't go back again.

 

[danek]

Yes, it's just a knife. And a Ferrari is just a car, a Kent is just a shaving brush, a President is just a razor; you see where I'm going with this.

It's about enjoying using a high quality tool to accomplish your task. Can you get a shave in 5 minutes with a 50 cent disposible razor and a 3 dollar can of goo? yep. But don't you enjoy (and get a better shave) with your 1957 flair tip, Feather blade, Rooney brush, Trumper's cream, etc...?

I think when you really enjoy a task and the tools you are using, you do a better job; whether it's shaving your face, building a bird house, or cutting up a buch of veggies.

 

[RazorDingo]

Yes, it's just a knife. And a Ferrari is just a car, a Kent is just a shaving brush, a President is just a razor; you see where I'm going with this..

I do indeed see where you're going with this. But let us just step back, for a moment, and consider a couple of things:

In considering the purchase of virtually any product, one comes eventually to a point of diminishing returns. At the very high end, in order to achieve an almost miniscule increase in utility, one has to spend geometrically greater amounts of money.

And for my money, that is the case with kitchen knives. I'm happy to spend four to five times as much to buy a good quality German-made carbon steel knife over what I'd pay for "bargain" knife. The low-carbon stainless steel "bargain" knife isn't very sharp to begin with, doesn't hold an edge very well, and generally has a poorly designed handle, and is virtually impossible to sharpen. You generally can get a year or two of "acceptable" use out of it, and then you throw it away and buy a new one.

The good quality German knife, by way of contrast, is well designed, holds an edge very well, and can be repeatedly honed and sharpened. Barring accident or gross misuse - its lifetime is measured in decades.

There is no doubt that one can achieve almost miraculous demonstrations of sharpness with some of the artisan-made Japanese knives. But I'm cooking here - I rarely, if ever, find a need to shave my forearm or (literally) split hairs in the kitchen. My Wusthofs seem to slice tomatos, cut squishy bread, or separate a wing from a chicken well enough.

 

[Mr. Clean]

... Slice a tomato with a sharp knife, and you just can't go back again.

Ouch, I appreciate your fervor and knowledge of all things kitchen cutlery, but that one is a weak example. I can slice the heck out of very ripe tomatoes day in, night out with a cheap, plastic handled, throw-away Ginsu.

Slice 'em so thin, they've only got one-side

...In considering the purchase of virtually any product, one comes eventually to a point of diminishing returns. At the very high end, in order to achieve an almost miniscule increase in utility, one has to spend geometrically greater amounts of money.
...
...There is no doubt that one can achieve almost miraculous demonstrations of sharpness with some of the artisan-made Japanese knives. But I'm cooking here - I rarely, if ever, find a need to shave my forearm or (literally) split hairs in the kitchen. My Wusthofs seem to slice tomatos, cut squishy bread, or separate a wing from a chicken well enough.

I agree on both points.

 

[Crazy Dave]

I am very puzzled but the references here to the hardness of the steel. Hardness allows the knife to hold an edge, but if you get too hard a steel, you won't be able to sharpen it. I have always looked for a balance between the ability to hold an edge and the ability to be sharpened. High carbon steel knives are not the hardest knives. They excel more in there ability to be sharpened. I steel my knives every time I use them, and whetstone them when they need it. I can get a great edge on both my modest stainless steel set and my Sabatier high carbon steel knives and my modest stainless kives. I can cut tomatos paper thin with my Wusthof, German stainless steel, made in China Santoko that I bought at Target for around $15. The fit and finish is not a good a Sabatier, and the balance it not as good (but it is not bad!). I am not saying that these are not things worth paying for. Nor am I saying that I would not want the expensive knives (and a Ferrari, etc.). I just don't get where you say you cannot put an edge on a modest (but decent) knife. I also don't understand the hardness "uber alles" philosophy.

Dave

 

[Suzuki]

Not sure how this post got to where it is - its a matter of finding the right tools for you.

I have, use and enjoy both German and Japanese knives in several price ranges and, while the sky's the limit in terms of what you can spend on knives, for the average home cook a few decent quality knives are perfectly sufficient - in fact, I'd say that having a couple of Forschners (inexpensive, but very serviceable), a couple of sharpening stones (and you could get by with a Norton 220/1k) and a steel (my favourites are the ceramic rods) and the proper knowleged as to how to use all of these items is better than having a dozen of the fanciest German or Japanese knives, but have no idea how to maintain or use them.

I am not knocking expensive knives - a finely crafted blade is a beauty to behold and a joy to use. But the reality is that the vast majority of the food churned out by even the best dining establishments is cut using a relativley affordable (and in many cases, downright inexpensive) knife. Similarly, a couple of Forschners (or substitute the service industry brand of knife of your choice) will provide the average home chef with all the cutting power they need.

As to the German/Japanese debate, its a matter of preference - that you're happy with the knives you own is all that matters. While there are differences between these designs, if properly maintained, both types will serve you well.

I will say that the only heavy German knife I have remaining in my collection is a large, heavy Henckels (that I purchased at a restaurant supply shop (complete with day-glo yellow fibrox handle) for $25) - I typically use my Japanese or Porsche design knives (German/Japanese, but closer to Japanese fusion design that I got as a gift) unless I have some heavy chopping to do. The simple reason being that, having gotten used to a lighter, thinnner knife, I do find the heavier knife less enjoyable to use. In fact, even if I'm using one of my inexpensive knives (I keep the inexpensive knives in the block and the better knives tucked away so that no one else messes up the good ones ), I invariably prefer a thinner blade over a thicker one for all but the heaviest chopping (read dealing with hard root vegetables, hacking stuff with bones, etc.) - all things being equal a thinner blade will cut better (meaning with less effort) than a thicker one.

Sorry for the long-winded post, I just didn't want to see this degenerate into a German vs. Japanese or expensive vs. inexpensive debate. The last pints I'm going to make before I shut up is that (i) a person's choice of knives is entirely a matter of personal preference and budget and (ii) no one should think they need to spend a fortune on knives to obtain all the cutting power they're likely to need in the kitchen.

 

[NoFair]

I use a magnetic knife rack from here.

So do I. Great product and the custom large ones are gorgeous even if shipping to Norway was a bit...

Most of our knives are Japanese or handmade US knives and are pretty hard (about 60-61RC), but only one is extreme and that has an edge that looks very much like a straight razor

Victorinox/Forschner would be my choice among lower priced brands; they are easy to sharpen, hold a decent edge and can take quite a bit of abuse.

 

[ouch]

I do indeed see where you're going with this. But let us just step back, for a moment, and consider a couple of things:

In considering the purchase of virtually any product, one comes eventually to a point of diminishing returns. At the very high end, in order to achieve an almost miniscule increase in utility, one has to spend geometrically greater amounts of money.

Boy, you're not kidding. As with almost any item, you'll pay a disproportionate amount for the slighest gain in performance.

But that's exactly where Japanese knives kick butt- they're some of the best bargains I've encouintered. The chef's knife I reach for most frequently (a 240mm Tojiro DP) is cheaper than almost any German knife of similar size. And my Hiromoto AS that ran a whopping $100 on sale at JCK is as good as any I've tried from any company. I have had some that cost several times as much, but I'll be the first to admit that they're not much better, if at all.

If these were super expensive toys, I'd recomment against buying them. Ultimately, you should use whatever you enjoy.

 

[RHVette]

I'm actually using a set of Sabatier knives: 8" chef, 8" slicer, and 10" bread knives. Total cost: $45. Throw in a honing steel and it's $60. And I can cut just about anything with them. All I need is a 3" paring knife and a 6" boning/filet knife and I'm set.
Personally, I'm a fan of high-carbon stainless. It's a good compromise between carbon steel (rusts sometimes in minutes, but razor sharp and super easy to hone) and stainless steel (rust resistant but nigh unsharpenable.) I can keep mine sharp but they won't corrode from cutting tomatoes.
Finally, I would actually advise against a knife block. I don't like the idea of cramming my knives down a dark hole with who knows what lurking at the bottom. If they made a block that comes apart for cleaning, I'd be all over it, but AFAIK, they don't. Also, a block tends to limit the size of the knives you can put in it. All in all, I like the magnetic mounting strips instead. Plus I think having those knives on display just looks cool.

 

[tsmba]

I've already posted the story of my progression to Japanese blades. I did just fine with German blades for years and wondered the same kinds of things about the Japanese blades. I ended up simply buying one, and as I used it, I quickly realized the value of the edge angle, ability to hold an edge, etc. I'm much more picky than what I consider to be "average" from the years of cooking for a living.

If you have access, there is an excellent book by Chad Ward called "An Edge in the Kitchen" that is packed with info. I've also found Fred's Cutlery forum and the kitchen section of knifeforum.com to be great sources.