Jnat vs Arkansas black

[cugel]

Either can give incredible edges. JNATs are fun for me because I have to learn a stone's "personality" before I can really max it out etc. The feedback on some JNATs is just crazy; you say to yourself "no way am I rubbing steel on stone", but you are. Some feedback I have encountered seem really elastic, others velvet soft, others hard and unforgiving, still others with almost a synth like feel. All of that depends on the slurry used etc too. Far from an expert, but none of my JNATs, perform and feel the same. Not shocking since they are natural stones I guess. But differences can be profound. Expect to pony up dollars if you want a big museum-type piece that will finish a razor. Koppas or small ones are reasonable. Purchase from a seller that knows razors.

My lone ark is an old trans ark, very hard but pretty easy to use and doesn't mind pressure, circles, half strokes, stropping strokes, you name it. It is not for polishing turds, however. Present it with a poor edge and it wont make it better.

 

[JPO]

In my opinion Arkansas edges will be different depending on what stones was used leading up to the finish. A coticule to Arkansas feels different then a synthetic to Arkansas. I have only been able to enhance good edge. For me it is more of a post finisher.

A jnat is a completely different animal, with allot of range, and allot of different ways to use it. The result will in most cases be less dependent on the presceeding stones used .

 

[Steve56]

Post 3140 here:

Show us your Japanese Natural Whetstones

These kinds of differences are where I start getting a little less clear about things... All of the BBW/Lorraine/Whatever that I've got good polishing results from have been on vintage, naturally-bonded combis. I haven't really used newer BBW, or stuff that's not backing an old coti. Do you...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Rosseforp]

And do these dans surgical blacks need to be burnished? If so do you think there are any sellers that burnish them for you?

I have no experience with jnats, as it is a huge rabbit hole, but it is very hard to go wrong with a stone from Dan's. Email them first and tell them you want a nice stone for honing razors. I have never found a need to burnish any stones that I have from Dan's. I have soft, hard, black, and translucent stones from Dan's.

When starting out with arks, I find the 2" x 8" x 1/2" to be one of the most reasonable sizes to start out with cost and learning wise.

Remember that a black or translucent arkansas stone is a finishing stone. Take your razor to the ark after finishing on your synthetic 12k for a crisp edge. Translucent arks cost more than black arks because they are more rare, but they will finish your edge the same.

~doug~

 

[SliceOfLife]

Damn it Steve you scared me. I followed the link and thought to myself "when was the last time I used that stone?" and panicked thinking I might have lost it in the move. I had just tucked it in with all my Razor grade jnat's and not even fumbled around on that shelf in a year or more. Maybe I'll shave off it tomorrow.

 

[rhgg2]

Synth 12k to good razor finishing Jnat... same technique but easier. (A lot of the technique needed on jnats comes in with lower quality stones, but the high end ones should all be pretty easy)
Synth 12k to Ark... probably need to relearn a little.


Both are great finishes and shaves. But a good Jnat can be like a Thuri. Pretty hard to mess up. Arks definitely GET that easy after you use them a lot and it becomes automatic for you; but out the gate it will be more of a learning curve.

This is spot on. As a beginner going from full synth to adding trans ark or jnat finisher I found both to be easier to get a really sharp edge from than pure synths (ending on the Shapton g7 0.85). However the ark edges are still kinda ratty and not that comfortable. The jnat edges were immediately comfortable and sharper than the ark edges. So a heap more practice needed on the ark. Whereas the jnat (an Ozuku asagi koppa from JNS) was just unbelievably foolproof.

The thing is, for me, when I'm sitting there doing laps on the ark I am wishing this could be over sooner. When I'm doing laps on the jnat I'm wishing it would go on for longer. They are very different feelings. But other people's preferences have it the other way around.

 

[Steve56]

Damn it Steve you scared me. I followed the link and thought to myself "when was the last time I used that stone?" and panicked thinking I might have lost it in the move. I had just tucked it in with all my Razor grade jnat's and not even fumbled around on that shelf in a year or more. Maybe I'll shave off it tomorrow.

My apologies sir, but as a long time JNat collector, your post confirmed what I know - there are a few JNats that are not that hard but are extremely fine. They’re hard to find and you lucked out.

Most of the soft but extremely fine stones have been used up, but occasionally you can luck into one.

 

[Eshebert]

I would love to have a Jnat collection, I have had 2. I actually have another and mikawa nagura set coming. But my problem is finding a source I trust. I don’t mind spending money but don’t want to be swindled. There are trusted venders but most do not have a stockpile to choose from. You have to be patient if your particular.

I love my Black Ark, and I felt great about the purchase. Dan’s is a trusted name in honing and you can’t find anyone that will complain about their stones and service.

Like a few here, I say get both, start with the Ark, because you know what you’re getting. As for Jnats, just keep reading and asking questions, this board is a good resource. Someone will point you in the right direction.

 

[SliceOfLife]

My apologies sir, but as a long time JNat collector, your post confirmed what I know - there are a few JNats that are not that hard but are extremely fine. They’re hard to find and you lucked out.

Most of the soft but extremely fine stones have been used up, but occasionally you can luck into one.

That's most or my Collection honestly. I buy pretty gambles from various sellers here and there, but honestly most of my jnat collection is made up of vintage stones that looked like they'd be a razor finisher, and they rarely/never disappoint. It's odd to think of jnats as a "value" stone, but those 6x2" stones mounted on kamisori cases may be it. Not exactly wow factor stones, but comparable to barber delight escher for 1-2 hundred? That's a deal. But stones like the one you linked.... that's a special stone... like I always say... a hard gamble to say a stone is definitely better once you get into the territory of good jnats and thuris, but some stones... you want to.... there's enough there, that just maybe they're special.

 

[Stapelfeld]

I would love to have a Jnat collection, I have had 2. I actually have another and mikawa nagura set coming. But my problem is finding a source I trust. I don’t mind spending money but don’t want to be swindled. There are trusted venders but most do not have a stockpile to choose from. You have to be patient if your particular.

I love my Black Ark, and I felt great about the purchase. Dan’s is a trusted name in honing and you can’t find anyone that will complain about their stones and service.

Like a few here, I say get both, start with the Ark, because you know what you’re getting. As for Jnats, just keep reading and asking questions, this board is a good resource. Someone will point you in the right direction.

I agree with you, this board is a great resource to learn. A lot of knowledgeable folk here. Thank you!

 

[GreazyThumbs]

Arks are wonderful finishers in the right hands. However, imo the are glassy and boorish to hone on. Dull lifeless and lack good feedback.

JNAT are far more versatile and way more fun to play with and experiment with. For me they are a better long term solution and get nearly as sharp as a good ark. I would be on the look out for a hard and plain Jane Ozuku; great finishers and a good entry stone into the world of JNATs.

Alternatively you can look for Arks cooler better looking European cousin, the Charnley Forrest. They are also novaculite but in my experience are more fun to look at and slightly more velvety then a true black. Deals can be had on some large real-estate examples. Good luck.

 

[rhgg2]

Be aware that the guy with lots of cheap Charnley Forests on eBay, it's not clear that they are exactly Charnleys, though they are close. I got three from him, one is great, the other two could be great but are very difficult to get into a hone ready condition, more so than my ark because they are ark hard but quite chippy and fissly.

 

[Eshebert]

While we are on the ebay subject, are there any one of those guys who are a reliable source for Jnats? I have purchased all mine from members here. I would like a few more but other than Keith, not sure who else is reliable. I am about to bite the bullet and buy a few and try out. Only issue with that is moving on from a trash stone. I would not want to re sell it knowing its junk, I guess it would have to go to driveway material.

 

[Steve56]

On eBay, Ikkyu Avenue/something is reputable and has good stones. Email them and ask for a Nakayama razor hone.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

On eBay, Ikkyu Avenue/something

ikkyujapanavenue

 

[Empire straights]

My apologies sir, but as a long time JNat collector, your post confirmed what I know - there are a few JNats that are not that hard but are extremely fine. They’re hard to find and you lucked out.

Most of the soft but extremely fine stones have been used up, but occasionally you can luck into one.

I've got an iromono that's pretty soft and is really fine and it was absolutly luck of the draw. I got another tomo that's an Aiiwatani that's almost too soft but is still very, very fine and the slurry breaks down quickly.

 

[Bowmaker]

ikkyujapanavenue

Has a website also.

 

[Empire straights]

Has a website also.

This is where almost all my jnats have come from and I've only ever got excellent stuff from them. The ones I've got for around a Benjamin are amazing stones. I don't have other jnat base stones to compare but compared to other types of top shelf stones I have these are contenders for top spot.

 

[Navas Cutler]

Hello ,
I’m an Arkansas stone fan , ( I know that may not be well received) I’m new and I hope my experience helps in some way for you.

I enjoy sharpening and honing with Arkansas stones and have had experiences with most other stones.
What I enjoy about Arkansas stones is that each stone has a wide range of variance buy how you prepare the surface and how you use with them , Tho some may disagree.

I would complete the hoNing progress on the 12 K that you already have and then dumb down the edge on an oiled Arkansas translucent or black.
this will provide the razor with more bite in my experience.
when it’s super polished off the 12 K I seem to get a lot of irritation from the edge of the blade, Super sharp seems to shave layers of skin off for me.