hey everyone! So I’ve been really into the straight razor honing journey and I’m already thinking of branching off from the synthetic finisher 12k and thinking of going the natural route because I’ve heard great things about natural stones. My question is what do you guys recommend between Jnat and a black Arkansas and how do they compare to one another and what similarities they share. Thank you in advance guys!
Jnat vs Arkansas black
- Thread starter Stapelfeld
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I fine hard jnat and hard ark will bring your edge to about the same place. You'll get an edge that's really keen but much more comfortable and smooth than a synth. Regardless of which way you go MAKE SURE they're coming from a trusted source.
I think range is perhaps the biggest difference. A black Arkansas stone can actually be used after a polishing compound and STILL continue to improve the edge but struggles to bridge the gap between a 12K and itself.
A razor grade Jnat can pick up after a 5K for example but the use of graded Mikawa Nagura is an advantage IMO…
At the end of the day these are two different systems that are almost incomparable in my experience.
A razor grade Jnat can pick up after a 5K for example but the use of graded Mikawa Nagura is an advantage IMO…
At the end of the day these are two different systems that are almost incomparable in my experience.
They'll both get you to a similar place once you figure them out, but the journey is vastly different. A Jnat will have more range, potentially a lot more range. An ark is purely a finisher. Actually more like a post-finisher.
You should try both edges from a friend/member of the forum before deciding. I have both and love both, however they do feel a bit different.
As a side note, if going the arkansas route - I suggest dans. You will be guaranteed an awesome natural. I also suggest trying to get one 3 inches wide if it is in the budget, well worth it IMO.
I like jnat edges more but only from really nice ones. Jnats have grades like arks, but the finishing ones can still vary a bit. Definitely become friends with a jnat guy and ask for their opinion when looking at stones if going this route.
As a side note, if going the arkansas route - I suggest dans. You will be guaranteed an awesome natural. I also suggest trying to get one 3 inches wide if it is in the budget, well worth it IMO.
I like jnat edges more but only from really nice ones. Jnats have grades like arks, but the finishing ones can still vary a bit. Definitely become friends with a jnat guy and ask for their opinion when looking at stones if going this route.
Bridge the gap with a thuri
Honestly I don’t think they are comparable. Both are proven great stones. More of a hit or miss with a Jnat. A Dans black is good time and time again.
- Thread starter
- #7
I was looking at the black Arkansas surgical black from dans and on the Jnats I got a link to a seller from a person I trust wholeheartedly. From the other reviews I’ve seen it looks like a really good seller actually. But I must admit going from synthetic to natural is very complicated, understanding the levels and there not being grits as you would normally have with synthetics. It’s a lot of information I need to keep researching.
Recently I’d been following a pasted edge with a little 4x2x0.5” Black. Really seems to add a notable degree of refinement after 3 dozen strokes or so but you could go longer if you’d like.
You can go to most natural finishers after an 8k with just water (or oil if an ark). If you went with a jnat, a tomo would be desirable for making slurry. Without getting too deep into it think of slurry on a jnat as a way to bridge the gap from synthetic to natural. You would be looking for a "tomo nagura". Other nagura stones (asano, the white/orange ones) can be avoided at the start and not necessary. Again though make sure you try the edges. You want to atleast know what edge you are chasing with these naturals - jnats can be a pretty big rabbit hole.
- Thread starter
- #10
And do these dans surgical blacks need to be burnished? If so do you think there are any sellers that burnish them for you?
I have recently got one and left 1 side untouched to try out. However I would suggest getting some float glass (cheap and very flat surface) and some sandpaper up to 600 (or 1000 grit). Dans you should have at least 1 side that is flat enough to go straight to sandpaper (320 grit or so). Shouldn't need to spend a crazy amount of time with the sandpaper to get the ark in a very nice spot. Don't need to g o crazy burnishing it after, but a few swipes with a knife to bump down any high spots is a good idea. You probably won't notice a huge different edge wise between 600 and 1000 grit sandpaper. Might have different feedback though and you can just roll with what you prefer.
I don't have any experience with jnats but I very rarely shave with an edge that wasn't finished on an Arkansas nowadays.
Haven't ever burnished one. I do recommend taking a knife or a beater razor to them first. I know a lot of guys do like to burnish them shiny. Mine are all finished to 400.
Depends on what you mean by "burnish." Opinions vary. Some guys like to work the surface over with a knife or a chisel until it's glassy. I've tried that but I prefer to finish it on 600 grit wet/dry and refresh that finish when it starts to get too shiny. (I still run a knife or a sacrificial razor over it 30-50 strokes to make sure there aren't any rough spots). I've also tried finishing various levels of w/d up to 2000 and 600 is what I like.
I doubt that a seller is going to do that kind of prep. Best you can hope is that it comes reasonably flat. Trust but verify is my advice there.
Apples and oranges.
Have razors honed on both systems so you can experiences the differences for yourself.
Have razors honed on both systems so you can experiences the differences for yourself.
As mentioned, they both will lead to a great final edge…especially with trying different things and practice, practice, practice.
I love tweaking things in my processes, and seeing how these little experiments affect the final edge and shave.
I will say this, for me, JNATs are a lot more fun than Arks. I have 4 or 5 sweet arks, but I just don’t get passionate about them. Perhaps I need to break one out before a Thuringian I just acquired.
Good luck and keep us updated!
I love tweaking things in my processes, and seeing how these little experiments affect the final edge and shave.
I will say this, for me, JNATs are a lot more fun than Arks. I have 4 or 5 sweet arks, but I just don’t get passionate about them. Perhaps I need to break one out before a Thuringian I just acquired.
Good luck and keep us updated!
I've burnished and used them as-is. I don't really feel like the burnishing is necessary to get a great edge. It'll probably get slightly finer if you burnish but it'll be way slower. Dans finished them to #600 and all of the ones I've bought have been flat according to my straight edge.
I’d start with an Ark. A Hard Arks from Dan’s is a sure thing in terms in quality. There’s not much variance stone to stone. Removing slurry from the equation simplifies things a lot. Your existing 12k will work perfectly for setting an edge up for an Arkansas finish. They also happen to be my favorite finisher. Sharp, consistent and comfortable. Arks tick all the boxes.
Once you get good with the Ark you can start playing around with Jnats. Jnats vary a great deal and are highly dependent on technique. The required technique can vary from stone to stone so you’re largely on your own to figure them out. Lots of fun to be had in the mud. Lots of frustration too. The best shaving edges in the world are hiding in those muddy puddles. It’s not always easy to find them though.
Once you get good with the Ark you can start playing around with Jnats. Jnats vary a great deal and are highly dependent on technique. The required technique can vary from stone to stone so you’re largely on your own to figure them out. Lots of fun to be had in the mud. Lots of frustration too. The best shaving edges in the world are hiding in those muddy puddles. It’s not always easy to find them though.
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Synth 12k to good razor finishing Jnat... same technique but easier. (A lot of the technique needed on jnats comes in with lower quality stones, but the high end ones should all be pretty easy)
Synth 12k to Ark... probably need to relearn a little.
Both are great finishes and shaves. But a good Jnat can be like a Thuri. Pretty hard to mess up. Arks definitely GET that easy after you use them a lot and it becomes automatic for you; but out the gate it will be more of a learning curve.
Main advantage of Ark is; as noted just above this post... If you get one from a reliable vendor like Dans or a vintage (Pike/Norton/handful of other labels), you're getting the stone you want. Jnat purchasing is always (or at least always for the guys who haven't bought thousands of stones and can look at the "skin" or the "Kawa" or whatever else they use to tell what a stone's like) a practice in trusting the seller. If you can't try the stone; gotta trust their description of it or at least their word it's a razor finisher. Similar requirement in the end (Buy from a good vendor)... but a lot more pitfalls as I can count the bad/not good ark distrubutors on one hand... and I couldn't count the same for Jnats on one notepad doc that would fit on a modern thumbdrive.
That said; obvious answer is get both.
Less obvious answer is; get a vintage norton hard ark if you find one underpriced for sale (they still come in somewhat frequestly with good BIN's ($75 for 7x2x1/2, $60 for 6x2x1... those sort of prices on good quality vintage translucents are a steal and not as rare as you may think) whereas most of the stones we chase that's pretty rare).
Assuming you dont have the time to watch/look for those deals; comes down to buying from Dans, paying the real/going price for a vintage ark or finding a good Jnat vendor and getting a razor quality/finisher. People here who buy a lot of Jnats can point you in the right direction there.
Comes right down to it... Arks are hard, glassy, slow stones that you hone on very meditatively... take your time and really learn to appreciate the refinement that's getting done.
Jnats vary but the ones that seem the best or highest graded razor hones act like Thuri's... ultra-fine and consistent slates with loads of abrasive so they behave more like a good quality synth waterstone than like an ark... but without any glazing/etc worries (again on the top notch ones) and with an edge that most shavers would find more comfortable/easier to use (vs synths) out the gate.
Synth 12k to Ark... probably need to relearn a little.
Both are great finishes and shaves. But a good Jnat can be like a Thuri. Pretty hard to mess up. Arks definitely GET that easy after you use them a lot and it becomes automatic for you; but out the gate it will be more of a learning curve.
Main advantage of Ark is; as noted just above this post... If you get one from a reliable vendor like Dans or a vintage (Pike/Norton/handful of other labels), you're getting the stone you want. Jnat purchasing is always (or at least always for the guys who haven't bought thousands of stones and can look at the "skin" or the "Kawa" or whatever else they use to tell what a stone's like) a practice in trusting the seller. If you can't try the stone; gotta trust their description of it or at least their word it's a razor finisher. Similar requirement in the end (Buy from a good vendor)... but a lot more pitfalls as I can count the bad/not good ark distrubutors on one hand... and I couldn't count the same for Jnats on one notepad doc that would fit on a modern thumbdrive.
That said; obvious answer is get both.
Less obvious answer is; get a vintage norton hard ark if you find one underpriced for sale (they still come in somewhat frequestly with good BIN's ($75 for 7x2x1/2, $60 for 6x2x1... those sort of prices on good quality vintage translucents are a steal and not as rare as you may think) whereas most of the stones we chase that's pretty rare).
Assuming you dont have the time to watch/look for those deals; comes down to buying from Dans, paying the real/going price for a vintage ark or finding a good Jnat vendor and getting a razor quality/finisher. People here who buy a lot of Jnats can point you in the right direction there.
Comes right down to it... Arks are hard, glassy, slow stones that you hone on very meditatively... take your time and really learn to appreciate the refinement that's getting done.
Jnats vary but the ones that seem the best or highest graded razor hones act like Thuri's... ultra-fine and consistent slates with loads of abrasive so they behave more like a good quality synth waterstone than like an ark... but without any glazing/etc worries (again on the top notch ones) and with an edge that most shavers would find more comfortable/easier to use (vs synths) out the gate.
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Using a set of Arkansas stones from start to finish is a legitimate way to go.
Also up for consideration would be looking into a BBW, or Rozsutec as an intermediate stone followed by a Vermont Green slate or Jonathan Coe Arkansas Grey
Also up for consideration would be looking into a BBW, or Rozsutec as an intermediate stone followed by a Vermont Green slate or Jonathan Coe Arkansas Grey
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