Should I even start restoring this one?
Is this too much hone wear to start working on?
- Thread starter Heespharm
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There is a lifetime of service left in your razor. I would not spend a lot of money to have someone else do the restore, but if you are doing it yourself, have at it.
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- #3
Thanks.. Off to ace hardware..
It's not too bad. It does look like it has a lot more spine wear relative to the width tho don't it?
- Thread starter
- #5
Spent a couple hours hand sanding this sucka... It has some pitting which I left in... It's an old blade so I don't mind imperfections... Got it somewhat shiney... Now off to scales... Gonna make my first ones ever
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Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Looking nice.
Remember this about hone wear... you only see part of it. You don't see the steel that has been honed away from the edge. And as long as you have some steel left, you have a razor that can be made to shave, with some amount of effort that varies considerably with the existing geometry.
Before restoring a blade it is a good idea to set a quick bevel and measure the distance between the top of the spine bevel, in other wirds the top edge of the "hone wear" strip, to the edge. Also at the same point on the spine, measure the thickness. The first measurement you can regard as the Hypotenuse of a solvable right triangle. Half of the thickness, regard as the Opposite side. Now you can calculate the bevel angle and determine whether the spine has been worn too much or too little compared to the edge, and possibly tailor your approach to the blade so that it will deliver the best possible shave. There are umpteen threads on this and they can get quite lengthy so I won't go OT here. Just know that most razors will have through a fairly large range of bevel angle, but the sweet spot usually seems to be between 16 and 17 degrees. Out of the box Gold Dollar 66's are often over 19 degrees. Some vintage American blades are under 15 degrees. Fatter angles can reduce cutting power. Skinny angles can be harsh and some steels are worse than others at supporting a finer angle. A lot of cheapo BS RSOs (Razor Shaped Objects) have extremely skinny angles because the maker was trying to grind a big blade out of too thin a piece of steel. I recently encountered one that was just over 10 degrees and I basically remade it into a 16 degree wedge. (Still didn't shave... steel was crumbly and I couldn't even get a good 1k edge)
Spine too thick for the blade? Obviously you can sand it down a little. Spine too thin? Just hone away at the edge on coarse stones or sandpaper with the spine taped until you get it back up close to 16 degrees. Or just leave it alone and see what you end up with. 16 degrees is not a fits all, magic number and you can get surprisingly good shavers at different angles. Many modded GDs have bevels over 18 degrees, for instance, and still shave pretty decently.
Another thing about significant spine beveling... you can easily smooth it back round again with coarse sandpaper, if you want it purty. Then just continue the sanding and polishing progression. Good idea to set a preliminary bevel before doing this, so the only wear you put on the spine after re-rounding it is from the progression and finish stones. This is especially true if you go really coarse during a restore, which I often do.
Extremely worn blades, for instance blades that are worn to half their original width and thickness, often start turning into more of a near-wedge even if they were like 3/4 hollow when new. So you may have to treat some of these as wedges. The one you are showing us is nowhere near that stage, though.
So don't let "hone wear" be a deal killer when considering a restoration. That would be like not picking up a chick just because she has freckles. It's not an insurmountable issue, usually. If in doubt, measure and calculate and then decide of you want to go for it.
Remember this about hone wear... you only see part of it. You don't see the steel that has been honed away from the edge. And as long as you have some steel left, you have a razor that can be made to shave, with some amount of effort that varies considerably with the existing geometry.
Before restoring a blade it is a good idea to set a quick bevel and measure the distance between the top of the spine bevel, in other wirds the top edge of the "hone wear" strip, to the edge. Also at the same point on the spine, measure the thickness. The first measurement you can regard as the Hypotenuse of a solvable right triangle. Half of the thickness, regard as the Opposite side. Now you can calculate the bevel angle and determine whether the spine has been worn too much or too little compared to the edge, and possibly tailor your approach to the blade so that it will deliver the best possible shave. There are umpteen threads on this and they can get quite lengthy so I won't go OT here. Just know that most razors will have through a fairly large range of bevel angle, but the sweet spot usually seems to be between 16 and 17 degrees. Out of the box Gold Dollar 66's are often over 19 degrees. Some vintage American blades are under 15 degrees. Fatter angles can reduce cutting power. Skinny angles can be harsh and some steels are worse than others at supporting a finer angle. A lot of cheapo BS RSOs (Razor Shaped Objects) have extremely skinny angles because the maker was trying to grind a big blade out of too thin a piece of steel. I recently encountered one that was just over 10 degrees and I basically remade it into a 16 degree wedge. (Still didn't shave... steel was crumbly and I couldn't even get a good 1k edge)
Spine too thick for the blade? Obviously you can sand it down a little. Spine too thin? Just hone away at the edge on coarse stones or sandpaper with the spine taped until you get it back up close to 16 degrees. Or just leave it alone and see what you end up with. 16 degrees is not a fits all, magic number and you can get surprisingly good shavers at different angles. Many modded GDs have bevels over 18 degrees, for instance, and still shave pretty decently.
Another thing about significant spine beveling... you can easily smooth it back round again with coarse sandpaper, if you want it purty. Then just continue the sanding and polishing progression. Good idea to set a preliminary bevel before doing this, so the only wear you put on the spine after re-rounding it is from the progression and finish stones. This is especially true if you go really coarse during a restore, which I often do.
Extremely worn blades, for instance blades that are worn to half their original width and thickness, often start turning into more of a near-wedge even if they were like 3/4 hollow when new. So you may have to treat some of these as wedges. The one you are showing us is nowhere near that stage, though.
So don't let "hone wear" be a deal killer when considering a restoration. That would be like not picking up a chick just because she has freckles. It's not an insurmountable issue, usually. If in doubt, measure and calculate and then decide of you want to go for it.
- Thread starter
- #7
Wow I just learned more about hone wear in this one post than in my year of honing... Thank you
Ps I love freckles
Yep - at a glance, and I might be wrong - but it also looks like the heel/stabilizer might be a bit into the edge as well, and should probably be relaxed.
To guess - whoever honed it in the past rolled the stroke too much and unevenly(wear at toe on edge and spine).
The wear on the spine over the heel is minimal compared to the rest - so the pressure at the spine was less for some reason.
It could be the stabilizer was in the way, the stroke was poorly executed, or both.
At any rate - it's fine as is but it might need a bit of TLC to coax it back into shaving shape.
- Thread starter
- #9
It looks like it's ok... I haven't honed anything challenging so this should be a learning experience... Good thing I only paid 15 for the razor...
Maybe a stupid question but I should tape the spine right?
Maybe a stupid question but I should tape the spine right?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Can you think of a reason why that particular spine needs to be honed with tape? If not, then of course you shouldn't. If so, then if your reasoning is correct you should tape.
First things first... find out what your current bevel angle is. Then decide if you want it fatter, sharper, or the same. That will tell you if the spine needs to be taped or not. If the bevel angle is less than 15 degrees, I myself would probably tape. If it is over 16 degrees, then don't tape.
First things first... find out what your current bevel angle is. Then decide if you want it fatter, sharper, or the same. That will tell you if the spine needs to be taped or not. If the bevel angle is less than 15 degrees, I myself would probably tape. If it is over 16 degrees, then don't tape.
- Thread starter
- #11
Okay width of bevel is 0.215 , length of edge to outside bevel is 0.725"
So inverse sine of (0.215/2)/0.725=8.56 degrees... So is my bevel angle 17.14 degrees
So inverse sine of (0.215/2)/0.725=8.56 degrees... So is my bevel angle 17.14 degrees
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Width of bevel? Did you mean to say the width or thickness of the spine? If your calculation is correct, that 17.14 degrees Is in the sweet spot.
I've been working on this with Slash's help. I took all of my razors and put them in 2 piles, great shavers and less than. Then I measured bevel angles. Well,... without fail, good ones were below 18 and OK ones were above.
- Thread starter
- #13
Thank u! You been overly generous with your time!
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
At just over 17 degrees, no need to tape. The spine and edge have worn down in pretty good proportion, as designed and intended. You have a reasonably healthy bevel angle, very close to the sweet spot. .14 degrees is nothing to be concerned about. You are there.
The only thing is, the very wide bevel area on the spine presents a lot of steel to the hone, and so wear will slow down somewhat, especially as the flat gets even wider. Not a really big deal but you can fix that, and make your razor look nicer in the bargain, by smoothing and rounding the spine. Or not. Whatever you prefer. A few years down the road, you might want to have a look at the bevel angle again and make sure that it is staying where it ought to be. If the angle is getting fatter, then take action, even if it is just honing with more pressure on the spine. But unless your honing technique is very unorthodox, any change will be very slow.
The only thing is, the very wide bevel area on the spine presents a lot of steel to the hone, and so wear will slow down somewhat, especially as the flat gets even wider. Not a really big deal but you can fix that, and make your razor look nicer in the bargain, by smoothing and rounding the spine. Or not. Whatever you prefer. A few years down the road, you might want to have a look at the bevel angle again and make sure that it is staying where it ought to be. If the angle is getting fatter, then take action, even if it is just honing with more pressure on the spine. But unless your honing technique is very unorthodox, any change will be very slow.
- Thread starter
- #16
Sweet now it's finding the time to hone 4 razors
Slash, I was going to ask about this. Since I've thinned the spines of some of my GDs, yes indeed they are very wide and create lots of stiction while honing and I think unsightly.
When you say "rounding the spine" do you mean minimizing the flat area from the distal end (the ice cream) or the proximal end near the hollow grind?
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- #18
Ooooohhhh that's probably why my gold dollar is honed the same as all my razors but is crap as a cutter... Never thought of blade angle
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Doesn't matter where the rounding leaves the new contact area. It will be the same bevel angle. So you could work mostly from the hollowground side of the flat and round that edge of it off, or both edges, whatever. As long as some part of the spine still comes out and makes contact at the original bevel plane, the rounding will have practically zero effect on the bevel angle. It shouldn't change the bevel angle. It simply reduces the contact area and makes it look purty with no loss of performance.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Yeah if it is a #66 then it has about a 19 degree bevel angle if the spine was not thinned significantly. However, most users find that it will shave fairly well anyways, but remember that with a big bevel angle, you cannot afford any convexity in the blade. That means you should be honing on synthetic stones and washing off any slurry that develops, or honing on lapping film. Slurried naturals might work depending on your stones and your technique but a clean synth progression would be better. Again, due to the large bevel angle, you can and should go very fine on the finish, and minimize the use of pastes post-finish. Fat bevel angles will support very fine finishes at the edge. With that big of an angle, you should never find the edge to be particularly harsh. Anyway, try it next time you hone it up. Myself I like how they shave at around 16-1/2 degrees but there are plenty of guys out there shaving with them basically unmodified except for a little heel work. See Buca's for an example of that.
However, I would urge you to try thinning the spine on a couple. Best way is to glue sandpaper to a polished marble tile and just set the bevel at about 80 grit honing flat with no rocking, no x stroke, just hone flat, and well, hope you like a straight edge cause that is what you are gonna get. At first use moderate pressure and watch the edge. The toe and maybe the new heel (before doing this, you should do your heel cutaway and totally smooth away the shoulder) will be last to develop a bevel of course. Once you have a bevel over at least most of the edge, start applying pressure more to the spine. When the edge bevel is nearly complete, TAPE THE EDGE. You will have to refresh the tape often. The taped edge essentially becomes your bevel guide for thinning the spine, and the spine and edge remain in line with each other. The original spine is often very inconsistent so the width of the contact area will vary. Not to worry. You are creating straightness where there was none.
It helps if you also thin the tang so you do not form a new shoulder. Makes things easier and keeps it looking nice. As a bonus you will be getting rid of the stamping. When you are done, it won't be a Gold Dollar any more anyway, so no need to carry the brand.
As you thin the spine, monitor your bevel angle. Shoot for around 17 degrees for your first batch. That's a nice Steady Eddie angle that will have nice cutting ability but not be tricky to hone or ever be particularly prone to harshness.
After you have your new bevel angle set, round off the edges of the spine's bevel flat. Get it nice and round again. You are almost there. Remember, you left the tip of the toe and heel without a bevel. So move up to maybe 150 grit and then 220 grit as you hone some more. Keep going until your bevel is fully formed at the toe and heel. Then once again, round your spine back down. Your blade is done, in form anyway, if not in finish. From here it is all hand sanding to smooth and prettify it and get rid of the original factory grind marks. Watch out... that edge will CUT YOU. Work with your hand around the spine, never with the edge facing the web of your hand. Pinch the blade between folds of small pieces of sandpaper. You can try to hurry this up with a dremel but your first several tries will probably have you digging even deeper grind marks than what you are trying to eradicate. And hand sanding is a slow job. Doing it right takes DAYS. The first grit you use needs to remove ALL original digs and scratches. You must not leave anything for the next grit except maybe a little in the thin part of the blade, where you may need to minimize material removed. The next stage removes all of the scratches from the FIRST grit, completely and totally. Leave nothing at all for the next grit to get or you will be sorry. Then the NEXT grit removes all the scratches left by the first. Each grit removes all of the scratches of the previous grit and replaces them with its own finer scratches. Work up to at LEAST 1k grit paper and I prefer to go up to 2500 grit. From there you can go to diamond paste. 3u, 1u, .5u, .25u, .1u and you end up with a beautiful mirror finish if you did everything right. For the diamond, you can use a dremel and a felt wheel. For the finest grits I like to finish up with a cloth wheel. Finally, the last grit should be done by hand with a piece of old t-shirt.
Now set your bevel at 1k, and look at your spine again. You may want to sand and polish the spine yet another time. YMMV. Then run your progression and finish on your edge and you have turned your $3 razor into a $200 razor, assuming you also rescaled. Unfortunately you used probably $10 worth of abrasives and $500 worth of labor to do it, but you did it and wow... how nice.
You will mess up. So don't get just one or two. Get 10 or 20. Do a batch of them. Especially when grinding with power tools, such as the heel cutaway and the shoulder fairing, you only want to grind for a few seconds then let it cool. So it is more efficient to do several, picking up each in turn and letting it cool as you run through the others, then the first is ready for some more grinding. I don't like to dunk in water, myself but other guys do it. If half of your first batch survives the process, you are doing pretty good. You end up with a couple for shaving, a couple for PIFing, and maybe pick the best one of the bunch to sell on BST. Lotsa fun. End up with great razors. Turn other guys on to great razors. Spread the GD love. What's not to like?
