Getting and sharpening a Japanese Knife

[tlittle]

Hey all,

I've always been a fan of cooking, and have done quite well with my limited set up, having been a poor college student for many years, and then a poor graduate for a few more. However, I think it's finally time to upgrade my knives, or at least start with upgrading my chef knife.

I've used a cheapo Farberware chef knife for about 90% of my cutting needs (being a lot of chopping/slicing veggies, mincing garlic, slicing meat thin...basically anything not to do with deboning whole animals). I've read a lot recently about japanese knives, and I think that for my needs a harder knife with thinner profile would work great and the edge would last longer. I've got my eye on the Tojiro DP 210mm chef knife to start with, but I'm open to other suggestions (preferably under, let's say, $130). In the same vein, I don't know how I feel about a single bevel knife, and I can't find any information on whether the Tojiro is a 50/50 bevel or not, so that might change my opinion (anyone know where in NYC I might be able to get my hands on a Tojiro DP, just to see how it feels?).

Now, I've heard that you don't need to steel a harder knife (since that might cause chipping), but rather touch up using stones when necessary. However, all I have at the moment is a DMT Extra Extra Fine diamond stone (3 micron, 8000 "mesh"). While that's worked pretty well for my clunker, I'm worried that it might cause chips in a harder steel knife. What would you folks suggest for sharpening harder steel?

Thanks for your help!

 

[YetiDave]

I don't know what hardness you're on about there but I've got an Old Hickory made with 1095 high carbon steel and the honing steel doesn't damage it one bit

 

[jmwebster]

I do not steel any of my Japanese knives. I use water stones to sharpen and occasionally newspaper to strop.

Yeti- your Old Hickory has a rockwell rating (this is a measurement of the hardness of the steel) of 53-58 which is at the top end of what most european style knives offer.

The Tojiro DP line, which is the intro to Japanese knives a lot of people use, is a 60 on the rockwell scale (and japanese knives are frequently higher than that).

For knives with harder steel, the steel hone will chip the blade instead of doing you any good.

I would highly suggest you check out what Dave Martell has to say here (as well as Jon from Japanese Knife Imports). Both REALLY know their stuff!

 

[YetiDave]

I use straights, Rockwell ratings aren't new to me I'd imagine that it really depends on your technique with a steel - if you're slapping the edge against the steel every time you go for a pass then I can see why it would chip. It'd also depend on the bevel angle

Edit - maybe a ceramic rod would be better than a steel?

 

[jmwebster]

Never used a ceramic rod, but I have heard those are supposed to be better than steel.

I think there is no shortness of horrible examples of how to use steels on knives among tv chefs (see almost every TV chef I have ever seen footage of), but I would be shocked to hear that the advice Korin.com, japaneseknifeimports.com, etc. have been giving about avoiding using steels on Japanese Knives is incorrect or that damage could be avoided by better technique.

 

[simon1]

In the same vein, I don't know how I feel about a single bevel knife, and I can't find any information on whether the Tojiro is a 50/50 bevel or not, so that might change my opinion.

It's a 50/50. I have the Tojiro DP 210mm chef knife, along with a Torijo DP 90mm paring knife that SWMBO just loves. Haven't needed to try and sharpen the 90mm yet as it was a Christmas present to SWMBO and it's still cutting like a laser.

Now, I've heard that you don't need to steel a harder knife (since that might cause chipping), but rather touch up using stones when necessary. However, all I have at the moment is a DMT Extra Extra Fine diamond stone (3 micron, 8000 "mesh"). While that's worked pretty well for my clunker, I'm worried that it might cause chips in a harder steel knife. What would you folks suggest for sharpening harder steel?

I use one of these to help me get the angle until I can get better at sharpening on my 1000/6000 combination water stone. You may want to do more research on which grit to get on stones as I am still a beginner. I am also looking at getting a ceramic sharpening rod for touch-ups.

 

[toyman]

Tojiro makes a nice knife and was on my short list when I bought my first a few years ago. I ended up going with a 240mm Kanetsugu Pro M gyoto (chef). It's right in your price range, sharp and thin. It's my goto knife. I would recommend going with a 240 or even 270, you'll be surprised how nice the extra length is to have when your cutting. Too short and you'll be unhappy. I also have a few Hattori knives which are just works of art and also great tools. As far as steeling goes, it's a definite no-no with japanese steel for two reasons. Steeling does not sharpen, it re-aligns the edge. German knives and/or carbon steel knives have a lower rockwell and makes them more susceptible to the edge rolling (not chipping due to the lower Rockwell) so steeling brings the edge back in alignment. The harder, more brittle, Japanese steels (59-63 rc) are more prone to chipping so you want to stay away from bones with them. Lastly, sharpening. If you want to learn the skill of sharpening with Japanese wet stones, that is great. Do some research and get the stones necessary. I chose the easy way out, as I'm more concerned about keeping my knives sharp than the art of sharpening (not that there's anything wrong with that) After much research, I found the Apex Edgepro. It's a fantastic, almost foolproof sharpener. It's not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

Link to Kanetsugu Pro M: http://japanesechefsknife.com/ProMSeries.html
Link to Apex Edgepro: http://www.edgeproinc.com/Apex-Model-Edge-Pro-System/Apex-3-kit-p6.html

Good Luck!

 

[Doc4]

You missed the group buy, but may still want to consider the items offered ...

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/309154-for-Knife-Sharpening-Stones-buy-is-closed

 

[ChefJohnBoy-ardee]

Your 8k mesh should work. You can always add to it if you don't like it. I'm finishing my knives off with a 4k Shapton Glass "stone". It could be polished more but it does the job well.

I have a Tojiro ITK 240mm Gyuoto and a ITK 120mm Petty. I have an Idahone Ceramic rod and it really keeps it keen between sharpening I had a Kyocera rod that I dropped onto the concrete floor at work... I like the Idahone much better.

 

[lwt210]

I have this nakiri by Tojiro.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toshna161.html

Love that knife. Mine is a 50/50 bevel and I sharpen it with my Spyderco Sharpmaker with the rods set in the bottom of the base side by side...similar to a stone....freehand. After finishing with the Ultra fine stones, I switch over to stropping on a piece of basswood with HandAmerica diamond slurry sprayed on it. Then I strop on bare leather.

I can get hair whittling performance if I take my time and pay attention to my angles. I have nothing but good things to say about that steel and it performs well for me. Have to keep it dry though as it is white steel similar to carbon steel and will rust if not kept dry. Takes a nice patina though the more it is used.

 

[tlittle]

Many thanks folks! I ended up doing more research, and ended up getting a different knife anyways.

It's the Hiromoto AS 210mm gyuto:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/higy21.html

It doesn't quite have the 50/50 bevel, but I think it's close enough that I should be able to figure it out.

I also got a bester 1200 grit stone (and I'll be getting the suehiro rika 5k as well), and I think that should do it for a while. Just out of paranoia I'll probably stay away from a steel (at least until I become a lot more comfortable with the knife).

Really looking forward to my first Japanese Knife!

 

[ChefJohnBoy-ardee]

I recommend a ceramic rod. Does wonders.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/idahone.html