Fine Wine Buying

[Shave and coffee]

A lot of cocktail discussion, but wanted to see if we can get an active thread on fine wine. I'm not a professional, but a rather enthusiastic collector and drinker of good wine. I visit a lot of vineyards and slowly adding to a long-term wine collection to either drink or sell later.

I'll kick it off by highlighting some notable and most enjoyed bottles of wine that I've drank:

Spottswoode Premiere Napa Valley Lot No. 137 Cab Sauv 2019 - just wow
Paul Jaboulet Aine Hermitage 'La Maison Bleue' 2015 - great for a bbq
Joseph Perrier Cuvee Josephine Brut Champagne 2012 - one of the finest grower champagnes that I've ever had for my birthday in 2021
Domaine Leflaive Puligny Montrachet 2018 - favorite appellation for chardonnay anywhere

 

[Lightcs1776]

Does that include boxed wines? Asking for a friend. Grin. There are Very few bottled wines I purchase. Most seem overpriced, but then I have a very challenged pallet.

 

[DesertIguana]

Buy what taste good to you, Wine need not be pricy to be great to you.

 

[cotedupy]

I too am an enthusiastic collector and drinker of good wine, and also a professional so could throw out a load of detail and opinion about all this. But keeping things simple here are some quick thoughts...

Buy the producer, not the appellation.

Buy French, Italian, and German wines. At the top end they are still easily the best.

Buy N Rhone now. In the future it will not be cool enough for properly elegant and delineated Syrah.

Buy Barbaresco.

Buy Beaujolais.

Buy 2021. Especially in France.

Buy lower cuvees in hotter years (if you have to), and higher cuvees in colder years.

Buy colder years.

Buy colder years. The best wine regions in the world exist at the climatic boundaries of where one could traditionally just ripen vitis vinifera. This is no longer the case; come rain or shine, nowadays it isn’t difficult to ripen Cabernet in Bordeaux, or Pinot in Burgundy. That historical hangover combined with the easy palates of certain American wine critics, have led to a conflation of 'good' vintages with hot vintages. This confusion won't last, but it's a godsend for anyone buying wine to lay down atm, because expensive, big, ripe, heavy, alcoholic wines actually don't tend to age particularly well. The most important things for long-term wine ageing are: low pH, and high TA*. Which basically means a cold growing season and low must weight / potential alcohol.






* These aren't exactly the same thing, but they usually come together. This is also why the very longest lived wines are white - white wine tends to be more acidic than red.

 

[cotedupy]

And one specific rec, just cos it's something I drank yesterday - this is the best sparkling winemaker in the world...

In fact it's not even a particularly close race. Recaredo's top cuvees are miles better than any of the fanciest vintage champagnes you can think of.

Unfortunately they and others know it too, so the top wines are also priced similarly to fancy vintage champagne. Though something like the bottle above (one of their lower cuvees) might set you back only $70 or $80. It's still not cheap perhaps, but it is astonishing.

87% Xarel-lo 13%Macabeu, five years sur lie under cork, disgorged Nov '22.

 

[Lightcs1776]

And one specific rec, just cos it's something I drank yesterday - this is the best sparkling winemaker in the world...

View attachment 1712789


In fact it's not even a particularly close race. Recaredo's top cuvees are miles better than any of the fanciest vintage champagnes you can think of.

Unfortunately they and others know it too, so the top wines are also priced similarly to fancy vintage champagne. Though something like the bottle above (one of their lower cuvees) might set you back only $70 or $80. It's still not cheap perhaps, but it is astonishing.

87% Xarel-lo 13%Macabeu, five years sur lie under cork, disgorged Nov '22.

I cringe when the bottle goes over $20, though I have heard that a proper red will be a few times that price. One day I may try one just to see what I am missing.

 

[Multum in parvo]

And one specific rec, just cos it's something I drank yesterday - this is the best sparkling winemaker in the world...

View attachment 1712789


In fact it's not even a particularly close race. Recaredo's top cuvees are miles better than any of the fanciest vintage champagnes you can think of.

Unfortunately they and others know it too, so the top wines are also priced similarly to fancy vintage champagne. Though something like the bottle above (one of their lower cuvees) might set you back only $70 or $80. It's still not cheap perhaps, but it is astonishing.

87% Xarel-lo 13%Macabeu, five years sur lie under cork, disgorged Nov '22.

Oli, should you ever be in my neck of the woods…

Kamptal - coolest region where you can grow Pinot Noir in Austria alongside world class Grüner Veltliner and Riesling. This is a 2008 that was disgorged mid 2022

 

[Doc4]

slowly adding to a long-term wine collection to either drink or sell later.

I only know about cellaring to drink later, not about selling later. To that end ...

... find out what you like to drink, and how much (if any) cellaring will actually improve it ... to your tastes. (EG: Bordeaux is famous for its ageing qualities, but some drinkers much prefer the younger wines to the well-aged.)

One of the best moves I've made in terms of cellaring wine is to buy bottles of LBV Port (Late Bottled Vintage). They come at a fraction of the price of actual "Vintage Port", and while they are technically drinkable upon release (the main difference being they are aged in barrels longer than true vintage Port), a few years in the cellar really helps them develop into something very nice ... not quite as good as a decades-old bottle of actual Vintage Port, but given the much lower price and the much shorter cellaring time it's a great trade-off.

 

[Multum in parvo]

I only know about cellaring to drink later, not about selling later. To that end ...

... find out what you like to drink, and how much (if any) cellaring will actually improve it ... to your tastes. (EG: Bordeaux is famous for its ageing qualities, but some drinkers much prefer the younger wines to the well-aged.)

One of the best moves I've made in terms of cellaring wine is to buy bottles of LBV Port (Late Bottled Vintage). They come at a fraction of the price of actual "Vintage Port", and while they are technically drinkable upon release (the main difference being they are aged in barrels longer than true vintage Port), a few years in the cellar really helps them develop into something very nice ... not quite as good as a decades-old bottle of actual Vintage Port, but given the much lower price and the much shorter cellaring time it's a great trade-off.

+1 on LBV

Crusted Port is another one of these sleepers

 

[Doc4]

+1 on LBV

Crusted Port is another one of these sleepers

The only drawback with LBV is the corks aren't designed to withstand long-term cellaring.

 

[Dtownvino]

Last night we had Titus Cab Franc 2013. It is in its prime drinking window right now. Bell pepper (dominant) flavor, medium acidity and weight, pair it with red meats or sausage dishes.

Cab Franc is mostly blended but finding a stand alone from Pride or Titus is a treat. Loire Valley (Chinon) is my other go to.



And I use Cellar Tracker to keep track of our cellar.

 

[cotedupy]

Oli, should you ever be in my neck of the woods…

View attachment 1713171

Kamptal - coolest region where you can grow Pinot Noir in Austria alongside world class Grüner Veltliner and Riesling. This is a 2008 that was disgorged mid 2022

V v cool. That does sound right up my strasse. I know the region obviously, but not that producer or wine, will keep an eye out!

Also - Austrian winemakers are wild. A friend of mine makes wine in Wagram and did a run of Pet Nat halves where he put a pill (i.e. E) in each bottle. Not so good on the palate perhaps, but a very entertaining drink otherwise.

 

[Tirvine]

I have had wonderful opportunities to sample some of the best of red Bordeaux/US Cab and Cab blends as well as red Burgundy and US Pinot Noir. I disagree that the French wines are easily the best. By and large they use the same grapes not only in different land and climate but also with differing approaches to winemaking. By and large I agree that most higher end French wines are better, but at their best I find some of the American counterparts as good or better. For Cabs and Cab blends I find Ridge Montebello, Clos du Val, and BV George de Latour worthy contenders. As to Burgundy, I find Oregon pinots like Patricia Green and some of the small vineyard old vine Sokol Blossers (Big Tree and Goosepen) simply amazing. I also find Oregon Chardonnay to be much closer to white Burgundy than most California Chardonnays.

 

[MHBru]

ok... all the normal disclaimers... not a professional, I drink what I like, not everyones taste is the same.... that being said I do have some long term favorites and they can be catagorized by brand. 2 from California and 2 from Italy.
Orin Swift wines have been excellent.. Palermo, Machete, 8 years in the Desert, Mercury Head, and Papillon.
Most of the red offerings from Freemark Abbey.

Fontodi Casa Via.... it's an Italian Syrah that is one of the best Syrahs you may ever taste. I got the recommendation for this wine from, of all people, a rep from Antinori who said it was likely the best Syrah in the world. He may have been right.
Antinori... my all time favorite winery. The Villa Antinori is a great every day wine that's hard to beat. Moving up the scale their Tignanello and Solaia are wines that push the upper limit of how good a wine can be. Trivia factoid.. Antinori joined with Italian wine guild in 1385 and has been run by the Antinori family ever since making it one of, if not the, oldest family run business in the world.

 

[Empire straights]

And one specific rec, just cos it's something I drank yesterday - this is the best sparkling winemaker in the world...

View attachment 1712789


In fact it's not even a particularly close race. Recaredo's top cuvees are miles better than any of the fanciest vintage champagnes you can think of.

Unfortunately they and others know it too, so the top wines are also priced similarly to fancy vintage champagne. Though something like the bottle above (one of their lower cuvees) might set you back only $70 or $80. It's still not cheap perhaps, but it is astonishing.

87% Xarel-lo 13%Macabeu, five years sur lie under cork, disgorged Nov '22.

I'm mixing fruit, water and yeast in a jug. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[Empire straights]

And sugar or honey.

 

[Tirvine]

ok... all the normal disclaimers... not a professional, I drink what I like, not everyones taste is the same.... that being said I do have some long term favorites and they can be catagorized by brand. 2 from California and 2 from Italy.
Orin Swift wines have been excellent.. Palermo, Machete, 8 years in the Desert, Mercury Head, and Papillon.
Most of the red offerings from Freemark Abbey.

Fontodi Casa Via.... it's an Italian Syrah that is one of the best Syrahs you may ever taste. I got the recommendation for this wine from, of all people, a rep from Antinori who said it was likely the best Syrah in the world. He may have been right.
Antinori... my all time favorite winery. The Villa Antinori is a great every day wine that's hard to beat. Moving up the scale their Tignanello and Solaia are wines that push the upper limit of how good a wine can be. Trivia factoid.. Antinori joined with Italian wine guild in 1385 and has been run by the Antinori family ever since making it one of, if not the, oldest family run business in the world.

I agree with you on Freemark. Try Ridge, too. I have never had a Ridge Cab or Zin that did not delight, even their lower cost Estate Cab (just under $50).

 

[cotedupy]

I'm mixing fruit, water and yeast in a jug. Am I doing it wrong?

Not at all! Properly ripened wine grapes have enough sugar and water that you hopefully don't need to add more, but it's basically the same.

Some places do allow the addition of sugar (chaptalisation), but often only in colder years. The addition of water is more contentious, though it certainly does happen. I remember asking a South African winemaker about it, and her euphemistic response was: "Well sometimes it rains inside the winery too."

 

[cotedupy]

I find Oregon pinots like Patricia Green and some of the small vineyard old vine Sokol Blossers (Big Tree and Goosepen) simply amazing. I also find Oregon Chardonnay to be much closer to white Burgundy than most California Chardonnays.

Certainly with you here; Oregon, Washington, west coast Canada, and New York (for Riesling and sparkling) are producing some really beautiful interpretations of the classics. And will continue to get better, while Cali bakes.

Try Ridge, too. I have never had a Ridge Cab or Zin that did not delight, even their lower cost Estate Cab (just under $50).

Though I'd also agree here too tbh. I know a number of trendy somms / industry types (myself included) who normally would eschew stuff like that for being too lush and obvious... but Ridge just do it so well. Their Zins in particular are simply, and undeniably joyous.

I disagree that the French wines are easily the best. By and large they use the same grapes not only in different land and climate but also with differing approaches to winemaking.

Well it'd be boring if we agreed about everything eh! But I'm afraid to say that: You're wrong.

France and Italy are still where it's at. And specifically because of what you say - different land and climate. Grapes like Cab Sauv, Chard, Sauv B, and Pinot can produce interesting wines, of of different styles, across various countries. But some of the other very best varieties just don't translate; Nebbiolo outside Piedmont, Nerello outside Sicily, Gamay outside the Beaujolais, Savagnin outside the Jura, or Chenin outside the Loire, are pale shadows of what they can be when grown in the right place!

 

[Empire straights]

Not at all! Properly ripened wine grapes have enough sugar and water that you hopefully don't need to add more, but it's basically the same.

Some places do allow the addition of sugar (chaptalisation), but often only in colder years. The addition of water is more contentious, though it certainly does happen. I remember asking a South African winemaker about it, and her euphemistic response was: "Well sometimes it rains inside the winery too."

Eh, I was joking around, I only add water to meads or melomels I make. I craved an apple wine last night I made and it turned out pretty well but really strong(probably 14-16%, didn't take readings) . I'm not much of a wine guy, but I like to make it and if it's booze I'll drink it. I'm going to start a mead for Christmas and an ale soon for fun. I've got a cranberry and apple wine finishing up soon. Wanted to try it because I plan to make one for thanks giving. I want to do a spiced apple mead for the Christmas batch.