And . . . Joy to the world.
I have no idea what led up to this but let's be helpful. Sorry Alfredo if I seem to be picking on you.
does lapping film work good?
- Thread starter Dadygoble
- Start date
And . . . Joy to the world.
I have no idea what led up to this but let's be helpful. Sorry Alfredo if I seem to be picking on you.
Guys, the thread is about lapping film. I think we had been doing pretty well the last year or so trying to keep from prostelytizing in each other's threads, hadn't we?
Sure, I used to be one of the main offenders. But I ain't like that no more...
Sure, I used to be one of the main offenders. But I ain't like that no more...
I own and use Coticules, Jnats, Thuringians, various slates and a Apache. I use and enjoy all of the. I also use lapping film on occasion and as far as ease of use and low cost none of those others compare. The edges off the lapping film are quite nice, I do prefer the "natural" edges (perhaps because I am used to them) but I could happily shave with film edges for the rest of my days. So yes, lapping film works quite well.
Read back on thee posts and it was a comment on a seraphim post.
To answer the OPs question
No lapping film does not work well.
To me film is like any other synthetics of the same grit, benefit is cheap start up costs, no lapping and ease of use. Drawback is film is flimsy, a speck of anything below your film will mess up the film-sure it's easy to change to another one but its a pain.
To me the main drawback is I don't like the edge off film, feels surgical, lacks a skin friendly component.
Film is a means to an end-in my case I don't like the means to get there or the end once I do get there.
" aside than the shooting Mrs Lincoln, how was the play" comes to mind.
Last edited:
+1.
See? That wasn't so difficult.
Just state your opinion clearly, no matter how wrong it may be
w00t, no need to mince words or dance around the subject.
Just state your opinion clearly, no matter how wrong it may be
w00t, no need to mince words or dance around the subject.See? That wasn't so difficult.
Just state your opinion clearly, no matter how wrong it may be
That is what I have always said
The big thing here is contrast. If you have never tried a natural edge, (there are many different stones as well as finishing techniques, harder , softer, in between) You would never know. See me and others have used film, synths, different naturals, if you never tried one how can you know whats better or worse? And you can really dial a natural edge in to your comfort. I know thats possible with film also as well as synths. I think film is great for ease of use and price point. But comfort level FOR ME is not acceptable. Ive tried a few others film edges also BTW. Great edges! But not for me.
Aaaw yiss! My films are here! Now I'll just have to wait for the microscope to get here
Yes, that is a common problem but it is also easily solved: First, use a large bowl of water that the entire piece of film will fit in (rolled up somewhat is fine, just so you can 'dunk' the whole strip of film). Wet the film and put it on the substrate (glass in my case) upside down... grit side down. Squeegee the back of the film with two passes of a credit card. Remove the film and squeegee the glass plate with two passes of the credit card. Re- wet the film, place it grit- side- up, and squeegee the film down to the glass with the credit card. This will guarantee that the back of the film as well as the mounting surface (Easy Boys!) is clean, and when the film is squeegeed to the glass, it is easy to see that all air bubbles have been removed, the film is flat and there is no debris under it (any speck of anything shows as a round air bubble). Using this method, a sheet of film can be firmly, cleanly, and very well stuck on the support surface in well under 10 seconds.
As far as dulling back the final edge so you can shave with it comfortably, I have heard that drawing the blade through a piece of cork several times will knock the finest portion of the edge off and effectively simulate a natural stone edge.
Brian
As far as dulling back the final edge so you can shave with it comfortably, I have heard that drawing the blade through a piece of cork several times will knock the finest portion of the edge off and effectively simulate a natural stone edge.
Brian
I do pretty much the same but I use running water and wipe off with my hand. Easy to see things that you don't want under and you just go again - rinse and wipe base then rinse film and stick. Easier than making slurry.
I do, however, use natural stones as I have found I like the shave a bit better.
I do, however, use natural stones as I have found I like the shave a bit better.
Something that has not been brought up in this thread, though it has been addressed in "Lapping film try it", is the fact that the lapping film looses abrasiveness as it is used. It is inexpensive enough that this isn't a cost issue, but I have a hard time deciding when to grab another piece. The only way I can tell it's time is to use a new piece and compare. I think I did 15 or so razors on my first 3"x 13" piece. Under the microscope it still showed it was working, but when I used a new piece there was a major change in performance. I guess it would be easy enough to make a pencil mark on the film each time it was used and pick a number of uses before trashing it. I did my final picopaper laps with the worn out piece of 1um last time and got stellar edges.
I've never been too fancy about contaminants on my substrate. I just wipe it with a towel, my hand, sleeve of my shirt, and go. If I subsequently find a bump (extremely rarely), it is easy to locate where exactly it is, wipe the substrate and the film, and it's all set.
I like to think of it as synthetic goma.
I like to think of it as synthetic goma.
Yes, the film looses cutting efficiency with each use.
There have been times when I've been out of lapping film, and broke, and have used the same piece for waaaaaay too long (like 20-30 razors...) and it still worked out just fine, it was just much slower cutting, and gave a finer finish than the base grit rating.
And this is why I don't use film. To call that wall of text "easy" is not for me. Ten seconds does not include setup or cleanup I take it. And juggling giant bowls of water in my honing area is not for me.
Don't get me wrong, I'd happily rinse off my glass, lay the film there and press it out, then hone away, and that'd probably good enough. (Seraphim posted that he does pretty much the same, and I'd assume he knows) But that's where it ends. I've got 100+ natural stones and probably 20-30 synths right now. Those stones combined are easier maintenance than what you just described to affix a single piece of film to a substrate.
Also, drawing through a cork sounds an awful lot like a classic fix to a wire edge of drawing through leather or rubber.
Last edited:
Again an new guy's impression.
But saying that cleaning a film and base is a hassle when compared to the whole slurry dilution progression is, to me, stretching it.
I mean one requires water and some care and one requires a sacrifice to the hone gods and an arcane knowledge of grit decomposition.
Nats are just plain intimidating for a newbie (not to mention expensive)
But saying that cleaning a film and base is a hassle when compared to the whole slurry dilution progression is, to me, stretching it.
I mean one requires water and some care and one requires a sacrifice to the hone gods and an arcane knowledge of grit decomposition.
Nats are just plain intimidating for a newbie (not to mention expensive)
I have the best luck avoiding contaminates by mounting the film to the marble at the sink under running water. I have pretty good luck with silicon spatulas like Brian uses. Your hands and sleeves must be cleaner than mine.
I usually run the spine down the hone to check for any bumps and if there are any, I just hone where they aren't. One of the advantages of having a lot of real estate. .
I have pretty much given up on the spatulas for cleaning / sticking the film down and just gone over to a credit card. The card is faster, the edge is harder and works as well as the spatula.
As far as those put off by the 'wall of text' and using that to show that flattening, slurrying and all the assorted 'frolicking' of a natural stone is faster / easier than what I described, well I do not think the astute reader will have any trouble seeing the difference. As I said, two strokes of a credit card, three times and the film is stuck on the substrate (via vacuum) in less than 10 seconds. I do not think you can even say the first paragraph of the natural stone incantation in 10 seconds....
And while other methods absolutely work fine most of the time, the method I mentioned works 100% of the time and never, ever leaves any debris or air bubbles under the film. I am a big fan of things that work every time, on demand. I do not want to fiddle with the film, I just want to hone quickly, efficiently and leave as good an edge behind as I am able.
Brian
As far as those put off by the 'wall of text' and using that to show that flattening, slurrying and all the assorted 'frolicking' of a natural stone is faster / easier than what I described, well I do not think the astute reader will have any trouble seeing the difference. As I said, two strokes of a credit card, three times and the film is stuck on the substrate (via vacuum) in less than 10 seconds. I do not think you can even say the first paragraph of the natural stone incantation in 10 seconds....
And while other methods absolutely work fine most of the time, the method I mentioned works 100% of the time and never, ever leaves any debris or air bubbles under the film. I am a big fan of things that work every time, on demand. I do not want to fiddle with the film, I just want to hone quickly, efficiently and leave as good an edge behind as I am able.
Brian
I have found the same thing and actually find that edges are sharper when made by fresh film rather than well- used stuff. The film still cuts but not as well and the razor seems to suffer for it. I think most of us use film far too long and I know I tend to do that. Besides that, it is not possible to use film too few times while it is easy and common to use it too much so lately I have been breaking out fresh film sooner than I used to do. All of this is for AlOx film by the way; diamond film is not nearly as sensitive and remains aggressive and effective for a long, long time. I have a piece of 1 micron diamond film that I think is sliding but it is more than a year old (!!!).
I have only purchased film one time for each type (AlOx, diamond) and I think in the future I will just go with diamond film entirely. More expensive surely but I find it works better both when new as well as a long way down the proverbial road. Also, diamond comes in 0.5 micron size which I really find works best for most razors (some vintage German razors do not seem to benifit from anything beyond 1.0 micron- I suspect they are not as hard as modern razor steel is).
Brian
I have only purchased film one time for each type (AlOx, diamond) and I think in the future I will just go with diamond film entirely. More expensive surely but I find it works better both when new as well as a long way down the proverbial road. Also, diamond comes in 0.5 micron size which I really find works best for most razors (some vintage German razors do not seem to benifit from anything beyond 1.0 micron- I suspect they are not as hard as modern razor steel is).
Brian
Fair statement, but dilucot is a process I enjoy doing. Cleaning up a large area to work in and setting up a surface and attaching films and removing films and attaching more films? Less so. But the big counterpoint is my primary honing method. DMT 600, 1.2k, 8k, finisher. Four honing surfaces that I've done nothing more than wash in 4+ years. I can hone a razor, without chips, start to finish, including setup and cleanup in well under ten minutes. It's simple, it's clean, it doesn't take much space. These are advantages for me. Of course the big advantage for me is that the results I get off the finisher I usually choose will be superior to those I expect I'd get off film.
Now obviously lower grit stones would require a little more maintenance, but if you pick stones that require minimal maintenance, it's not much; and I see it being quite easy to find a system that winds up being less trouble than Brian's film honing. Nothing against his technique, but it's not for me. And if he and others truly find that such care is required to get the most from their film finishes, then that's a mark against films in my book. Likewise, I'd consider it a mark against coticules as finishers if I agreed with some that many or most coticules required running water to maximize the finish. I don't. I've found that technique changes which are less messy or awkward accomplish the same. As I'm sure Seraphim has found is the case with films, but it's something that I have to be aware of when I consider the use of films.
Brian: I point you to my progression above, I've not done anything but wash the four primary components (putting any of several dozen chosen natural finishers at the end stage) in years. I have less than thirty seconds of setup and cleanup when I hone, without having a spot set aside and kept clear for that purpose. Yes, you can argue that there's more involved in other natural systems, such as Jnat + nagura or dilucot; but I think most people would propose that either those techniques are enjoyable to them (you may find cleaning and squeeging film enjoyable, but I doubt I would), that the results justify the extra work, or both. I find the former in some cases, which is why I use these methods on occasion. I don't so much find the latter, which is why I tend more often to follow a very fast and simple synthetic process (which were it not for the short lifespan and tedious setup {as I perceive it} film could substitute for) with a natural finisher, which I have found gives me a very much improved result over continuing on the synthetics available to me.
Last edited:
Similar threads
