Deciding what to do

[Stygo]

I have one razor that I've been having trouble honing and I'm trying to decide what to do next. This doesn't seem to be a big "problem", but I'm trying to learn without messing up the razor too much. It started with a little bit of "wobble" on a known flat surface. I started with the "just hone it" to flatten it out, I reached the point where I didn't want to remove much more spine so I started doing rolling X - this worked OK on one side of the blade but I had issues getting consistency across the edge on the other side.

I just did a couple of pictures with 2 light strokes on a 4k with red marker. I put tape on it for my last attempt, but just took it off to see what was happening on the spine - there is still marker on the edge, but the worn off pieces are similar to what I see all the way to the edge with tape.

Holding the edge up to a straight edge shows that the heel portion falls away slightly and that the overall edge has a very slight smile.

I'm trying to decide on going back to honing this without tape until it flattens out vs. living with it and figuring out why my rolling X in one direction doesn't seem to quite work out the way I'm expecting.

Advice appreciated!

 

[JPO]

A subtle smile actually helps when you hone the concave side of the blade.
When you hone the concave side you need to roll off downwards on your stone, or hone it in sections.
This will depend on how bad the geometry is.
On the belly side you need to do a slight heel forward rolling upwaards stroke. You just need to move the contact point anlong the length of the bevel.
If it's a new blade there might also be a part of the spine that is thicker. A heel forward stroke will in most cases keep this part of the spine off the stone.
If you ride this high spot on the stone you will lift the heel and never get a good edge.
You don't need to straighten the edge.
It is also probably a good idea to use a layer of tape if this is one of your first blades.

 

[Stygo]

I have 1 razor with a "true" smile that needs to be honed with edge and heel in the air, oddly enough I've had my best edges honing on this razor. I have one more that also seems "bent" like this one but without the heel leaning in, I've found I get most success with that one on narrower hones with more gradual chamfer so I can more effectively do the concave side.

If I look in the microscope at the bevels on this one with a "sliding" X stroke/doing it in sections, the belly side looks beautiful but the concave side looks inconsistent. Maybe need to take this to the narrower hones or chamfer the edges on my regular ones more. But this looks "close enough" I've also been debating if I should just try to straighten it out.

 

[rbscebu]

If you are not already doing it, try honing in-hand. This works particularly well if you are relatively new to honing SRs. It allows you to better appreciate the edge/bevel force you are applying. It also allows the whetstone to move around a bit to better hone any "irregularities" in the edge profile.

 

[JPO]

I have 1 razor with a "true" smile that needs to be honed with edge and heel in the air, oddly enough I've had my best edges honing on this razor. I have one more that also seems "bent" like this one but without the heel leaning in, I've found I get most success with that one on narrower hones with more gradual chamfer so I can more effectively do the concave side.

If I look in the microscope at the bevels on this one with a "sliding" X stroke/doing it in sections, the belly side looks beautiful but the concave side looks inconsistent. Maybe need to take this to the narrower hones or chamfer the edges on my regular ones more. But this looks "close enough" I've also been debating if I should just try to straighten it out.

You can also consider using a convex stone, like most master grinders did for hundreds of yeas, and as Dovo still use. You will then get a nice and even bevel on both sides.
Don't worry, you will not create a frawn. They are actually quite useful for removing frawns.

 

[Stygo]

If you are not already doing it, try honing in-hand. This works particularly well if you are relatively new to honing SRs. It allows you to better appreciate the edge/bevel force you are applying. It also allows the whetstone to move around a bit to better hone any "irregularities" in the edge profile.

I occasionally will hone in hand. For some reason I find that for the smiling or taco razors when a smaller part of the blade is in contact with the stone it "feels" like I have more control on the bench using two hands on the razor... Something about feeling the balance between hands, I can lightly torque or apply 'toe to heel rolling' pressure with one hand and help position it with the the other. This is likely a skill & practice issue on my side though.

With flatter razors it is definitely easier to feel the blade and hone mate when doing it in hand, but those are also easier overall!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The razor was honed with tape, or you are using too much pressure, flexing the blade and honing on the back of the bevel. The wear on the spine and edge shows it is pretty straight, as said, you will need to hone the heel with a heel forward stroke to fully hone the heel.

Re ink the bevel and add 2 layers of tape and see where the ink comes off. If the ink comes off at the edge, you were using too much pressure. A hollow ground shoulder less blade can flex easily and lift the edge off the stone.

You can also hone with a single layer,1 inch of tape in the center of the spine, that will give you a bit of a fulcrum and allow you to Roll the razor more easily without a lot of gyration or pressure.

I hone with a single 1-inch layer of tape in the center and a full layer of Kapton tape over the electrical tape to hone towards a slight smile.

Usually the amount of “roll” that is needed to hone a slight warp, is not much.

Careful using narrow stone, they can easily hone a frown. You will have more control honing on the bench, especially if new to honing. One less variable.

 

[Stygo]

The razor was honed with tape, or you are using too much pressure, flexing the blade and honing on the back of the bevel. The wear on the spine and edge shows it is pretty straight, as said, you will need to hone the heel with a heel forward stroke to fully hone the heel.

Yes, the razor was honed with tape.

So I went back to the narrower hone (hard nakayama koppa) I use for my other "taco" razor and did 3 rounds of 'in hand' x strokes with Botan to try to catch up a bit on the lower grits. At HHT-3 now from toe to heel and looking much more consistent on both sides. I will probably finish up the progression on this stone.

I'm not sure why I couldn't get this result on the wider stones, it must be something I'm doing wrong on those. I will need to go back and figure that out.

 

[Stygo]

You can also hone with a single layer,1 inch of tape in the center of the spine, that will give you a bit of a fulcrum and allow you to Roll the razor more easily without a lot of gyration or pressure.

I hone with a single 1-inch layer of tape in the center and a full layer of Kapton tape over the electrical tape to hone towards a slight smile.

Usually the amount of “roll” that is needed to hone a slight warp, is not much.

Careful using narrow stone, they can easily hone a frown. You will have more control honing on the bench, especially if new to honing. One less variable.

I will need to give this tape trick a try on both this + my other taco razor. I'm still not sure why I have trouble on these two razors with the wider hones. I'm wondering if part of it is the chamfer - I have a really wide and shallow one on this hone, but the chamfer I have on my larger hones isn't nearly as large or shallow.

 

[Gamma]

If you start with tape, you have to finish with tape - or, if you take the tape off at the mid point, then you have to start over without tape and then finish without tape.
Basically, you have to finish the geometry you started.

Learning how to hone takes effort, and there are usually successes and failures along the way.
Like with most things in life, the failures stem from not understanding basics, or not paying attention to them or what is going on.

There is no data proving one way of honing is better than another way. Just because poobah A thinks honing method Z is better for person Y, that doesn't make it a fact. Some people hone on a bench, others in-hand, whatever works is what works.

Narrow stones do not create frowns. People create frowns by not paying attention.
If your pressure is consistent, then honing on a narrow stone will be fine.
It's not unusual for someone new to struggle with rolling strokes. It looks easier to do than it is to execute across the entire progression. It's just a matter of practice and paying attention.

 

[Stygo]

If you start with tape, you have to finish with tape - or, if you take the tape off at the mid point, then you have to start over without tape and then finish without tape.

Yes, I took the tape off to get an idea of where things stood on the spine with the red marker - figuring I would see the artifact in the original image, but that there still might be meaningful learnings. I also did the marker check with the tape I originally used for honing, and essentially saw the similar "length" of area worn away on the bevel, but in the case with tape it went all the way to the edge as expected. As shown above the tape went back on to keep moving forward.

 

[Gamma]

Honestly, I'm not sure what you are saying there. Seems complex and somewhat confusing. It's ok though.

But, taking a guess, if you honed with tape, then without tape so you can 'see something', that can cause issues that can be difficult or impossible to rectify without making special arrangements, depending on things going on in the moment.
I can't imagine needing or wanting to do that actually. I tend to keep things very simple though.

 

[Stygo]

Honestly, I'm not sure what you are saying there. Seems complex and somewhat confusing. It's ok though.

But, taking a guess, if you honed with tape, then without tape so you can 'see something', that can cause issues that can be difficult or impossible to rectify without making special arrangements, depending on things going on in the moment.
I can't imagine needing or wanting to do that actually. I tend to keep things very simple though.

Probably true that it wasn't a helpful experiment to look at the spine without the tape.

Good news is I did end up salvaging it and getting a great shave tonight.