- Thread starter
- #21
How much does the Bersa .380 go for?
After the last few comments, I'm rethinking the .22 choice.
After the last few comments, I'm rethinking the .22 choice.
Considering buying Beretta Bobcat. Any opinions?
- Thread starter GAR
- Start date
One thing to consider is that the .380s have a lot more recoil than the 22. Make sure your wife will be comfortable with it. If she, is , it is a far superior choice. But, if not, she won't carry or practice with it.
I picked mine up used for about $180. That seems to be the going rate on these around here.
It is a good idea to give a caliber a test drive before you buy. Some of the ranges(around me at least) have "loaners" in each caliber. You can rent them by the hour and use them on the range to see what fits you best.
That's a good price for a bobcat
BUT!!!!
If your girl is new to guns you might be better off starting her out with a revolver.
With semi autos you have a -slide- a magazine -and most have some sort of safety to disengage before firing.
A beginner will have to learn will have to learn how each operates.
Plus with a auto, after the first shot the shooter has a cocked gun in thier hand.
Not something good for a beginer with a rush of adrenline after a self defence shooting !!!
With alot (A LOT !!!) of training these can all be learned.
But you have to remember that in most self defence shootings everything happens fast and you might not have time to think about what you have to do to get your gun into action.
It has to come (without) thinking about it!
My advise would be a S&W 642 5 shot 38.
It has a enclosed hammer to keep it from snagging when drawing from a pocket and only weighs around 19 ounces.
The only skill needed to fire it is (pull the trigger!)
It is chambered in 38spl. and you can shoot low recoiling wad cutter loads or go full out power with 38+p loads in 125gr. JHP for more stopping power.
While I agree that a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a cannon, you have to remember that making (any hit) let alone a head shot on a moving target is tough.
So I would advise to shoot at center mass (sturnum)
A hit with a wad cutter or JSP from a 38 will have MUCH MORE effect than any 22, even if you are off the sturnum and in the lungs with a hit.
And if your talking about maybe having to shoot a mountian lion!
There is a good chance that even a head shot with a 22 hitting it on top of the head will skidd off with out penetrateing.
The 38 has a better chance of blowing the top of the lions head off with the same hit.
Also, if you miss the head, you still may hit the shoulder with enough oompf to break it down with the 38.
Or a low hit, will still send the 38 through the lower jaw or neck into the chest.
The S&W will cost about $400 compared to the $150 for the bobcat, but you have to remember the reason you want the gun in the first place.(TO STAY ALIVE)
Don't let price determine your choice.
BUT!!!!
If your girl is new to guns you might be better off starting her out with a revolver.
With semi autos you have a -slide- a magazine -and most have some sort of safety to disengage before firing.
A beginner will have to learn will have to learn how each operates.
Plus with a auto, after the first shot the shooter has a cocked gun in thier hand.
Not something good for a beginer with a rush of adrenline after a self defence shooting !!!
With alot (A LOT !!!) of training these can all be learned.
But you have to remember that in most self defence shootings everything happens fast and you might not have time to think about what you have to do to get your gun into action.
It has to come (without) thinking about it!
My advise would be a S&W 642 5 shot 38.
It has a enclosed hammer to keep it from snagging when drawing from a pocket and only weighs around 19 ounces.
The only skill needed to fire it is (pull the trigger!)
It is chambered in 38spl. and you can shoot low recoiling wad cutter loads or go full out power with 38+p loads in 125gr. JHP for more stopping power.
While I agree that a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a cannon, you have to remember that making (any hit) let alone a head shot on a moving target is tough.
So I would advise to shoot at center mass (sturnum)
A hit with a wad cutter or JSP from a 38 will have MUCH MORE effect than any 22, even if you are off the sturnum and in the lungs with a hit.
And if your talking about maybe having to shoot a mountian lion!
There is a good chance that even a head shot with a 22 hitting it on top of the head will skidd off with out penetrateing.
The 38 has a better chance of blowing the top of the lions head off with the same hit.
Also, if you miss the head, you still may hit the shoulder with enough oompf to break it down with the 38.
Or a low hit, will still send the 38 through the lower jaw or neck into the chest.
The S&W will cost about $400 compared to the $150 for the bobcat, but you have to remember the reason you want the gun in the first place.(TO STAY ALIVE)
Don't let price determine your choice.
For the intended use I would suggest something other than a bobcat. Yes, I completely agree with the advice that any gun is better than none, you are taking a very small (and not always reliable) round and cutting the barrel length next to nothing. If you must go .22 look into a Walther P22 or a Ruger Bear cat.
I would look into getting a J-frame Smith and Wesson in a 3'' barrel. They make excellent kit guns, would be very light, and they are far easier to shoot than a pocket gun. Here is a new one from then that looks very interesting.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15702
I would look into getting a J-frame Smith and Wesson in a 3'' barrel. They make excellent kit guns, would be very light, and they are far easier to shoot than a pocket gun. Here is a new one from then that looks very interesting.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15702
- Thread starter
- #26
Thanks for all the great advice.
After careful consideration, I don't think a .22 Bobcat is the right gun in our particular situation. My wife is not going to spend a lot of time practicing shooting. It's just not going to happen. And I think a .22 would be inadequate if she came up against large critters, not only from a firepower standpoint but also the accuracy needed to hit them where they need to be hit. That type of precision shooting with a .22 would only come from hours and hours of practice.
I think we'll consider a larger caliber like a .380. I like the idea of a revolver for her since they're so easy to use. But my wife thinks my .38 is too heavy to lug around. Is there anything out there in a revolver that is fairly light but has more firepower than a .22?
Thanks again for all your advice.
After careful consideration, I don't think a .22 Bobcat is the right gun in our particular situation. My wife is not going to spend a lot of time practicing shooting. It's just not going to happen. And I think a .22 would be inadequate if she came up against large critters, not only from a firepower standpoint but also the accuracy needed to hit them where they need to be hit. That type of precision shooting with a .22 would only come from hours and hours of practice.
I think we'll consider a larger caliber like a .380. I like the idea of a revolver for her since they're so easy to use. But my wife thinks my .38 is too heavy to lug around. Is there anything out there in a revolver that is fairly light but has more firepower than a .22?
Thanks again for all your advice.
- Thread starter
- #27
I just looked up the Smith & Wesson 642 .38. That might be the way to go. The site listed it at 15 ounces. Not that much heavier than the Bobcat.
I like the simplicity of a revolver for my wife. Not much to think about but aim and shoot.
I like the simplicity of a revolver for my wife. Not much to think about but aim and shoot.
The need for accuracy doesn't change just because the caliber changes. If anything, frequent practice is more important with larger calibers because of the increased recoil and the propensity to develop a flinch. Such a flinch will cause a right-handed shooter to hit consistently low and left. This can be overcome with training, especially the use of ball-and-dummy drills, but it's far better to not develop the flinch in the first place.
The best bet for initial handgun training, but not carry, is a .22LR revolver or semi-automatic, depending on what your choice of carry firearm will be. It is then a fairly simple matter to transition from the .22LR to a more viable self-defense caliber. It's important that the manual-of-arms be as close between the .22LR and self-defense gun as possible so that the trainee is learning appropriate muscle memory.
Were I advising a person looking for self-protection but who was unwilling to practice with a firearm, I would suggest a high-quality pepper spray, such as Fox Labs, and a loud noise-making device such as an air horn or a whistle. In my experience, a person in a stressful situation does not rise to the challenge but rather drops to their level of training. If there is no training, the default action is to freeze, which is how gun grabs occur.
Firearms are very effective in the right hands but they are not a magic talisman. If a person is relying on waving a handgun around to dissuade someone they may well be shocked into inaction when the criminal isn't as impressed with the appearance of the gun as is the victim, or decides to show off his gun as well.
In addition to a firearm, it is important to carry, and be trained on, less-than-lethal force options, such as pepper spray, as well, as the use of deadly force is not always appropriate. As the saying goes, "When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
All that being said, the S&W 642 is a fine handgun. I own one and carry it frequently when I decide to go about less than fully armed.
Just keep in mind, as the weight of a gun decreases, felt recoil increases.
I've not shot any of the ultra light revolvers out there but hear it commented that the recoil is noticeable. A good reason to try before you buy.
Also, here is some reading on "women and firearms" by a woman.
www.corneredcat.com
I've not shot any of the ultra light revolvers out there but hear it commented that the recoil is noticeable. A good reason to try before you buy.
Also, here is some reading on "women and firearms" by a woman.
www.corneredcat.com
As pocket guns go, the Bobcat is a little on the big side. That makes it easier to handle than the smaller guns. A nice thing about it is that it has a tip up barrel which makes chambering a round easy and clearing a round easy. This also makes it so you never have to rack the slide. a consideration for those with weak hands.
Since the OP specifically deals with this gun... At < $150 I think I would give it a try. If you don't like it you should be able to sell it and break even.
I would consider a Smith model 60 in 38spl. I have one and with a Hogue grip it really fits the hand well and is rock steady reliable, easy to shoot, packs enough punch to just get into the self defense curve. With a pancake holster it fits tight against your body but is readily accessable. If you want to conceal a jacket or tail out shirt does the trick. 38 shot shells work well in it if that suits your application.
edit- the model 60 is a stainless version of the small (j?) frame 5 shot snub nose revolver
Since the OP specifically deals with this gun... At < $150 I think I would give it a try. If you don't like it you should be able to sell it and break even.
I would consider a Smith model 60 in 38spl. I have one and with a Hogue grip it really fits the hand well and is rock steady reliable, easy to shoot, packs enough punch to just get into the self defense curve. With a pancake holster it fits tight against your body but is readily accessable. If you want to conceal a jacket or tail out shirt does the trick. 38 shot shells work well in it if that suits your application.
edit- the model 60 is a stainless version of the small (j?) frame 5 shot snub nose revolver
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I have the .25ACP version of the Beretta, perhaps not much better than a hot .22 but perhaps a bit more reliable in a semi-auto. I like the tip-up barrel feature...makes it a breeze for someone with small or weak hands to chamber that first round. It makes a pretty big "bang" when fired, and should certainly scare the hell out of a coyote, whether of the four-legged or two-legged variety. The gun is so small and light, even a .25 has a bit of recoil, but nothing like a snub .38.
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=324&category=Revolver
This is what I carry off duty. I am a S&W snob, but this has been such an excellent little gun, I will never part with it. With 110 grain JHPs this is a very nice to shoot gun as well.
This is what I carry off duty. I am a S&W snob, but this has been such an excellent little gun, I will never part with it. With 110 grain JHPs this is a very nice to shoot gun as well.
sure, but cost will increase.
sounds like you may need a glock.
sounds like you may need a glock.
I have the bobcat, and while it's a fun gun to shoot, I must concur with some of the other posters that it is NOT recommended for your purposes.
I also own the tomcat, which is basically the same gun in .32 acp. This might be a little better, in that the .32 is a centerfire round that packs considerably more punch than the .22, and it will fit smaller hands well. However, even though it seems counterintuitive, small light guns have greater perceived recoil than larger, heavier guns. Also, the very short barrel will make accuracy at any distance greater than 10-15 feet difficult. Although, pistol shot shells may be useful in some situations, and increase the likelihood of scoring a hit. If cougars (the animals, not sexy divorcees
) are a problem in your area, then you might have snakes too, and shot shells from a pistol are great for dispatching snakes.
Also, training is more important than tools. Whatever you choose, she needs to be well trained in the guns operation, and in general safety and gun handling and marksmanship. If you can convince her to take some courses, this would be highly encouraged. Good luck!
I also own the tomcat, which is basically the same gun in .32 acp. This might be a little better, in that the .32 is a centerfire round that packs considerably more punch than the .22, and it will fit smaller hands well. However, even though it seems counterintuitive, small light guns have greater perceived recoil than larger, heavier guns. Also, the very short barrel will make accuracy at any distance greater than 10-15 feet difficult. Although, pistol shot shells may be useful in some situations, and increase the likelihood of scoring a hit. If cougars (the animals, not sexy divorcees
) are a problem in your area, then you might have snakes too, and shot shells from a pistol are great for dispatching snakes.Also, training is more important than tools. Whatever you choose, she needs to be well trained in the guns operation, and in general safety and gun handling and marksmanship. If you can convince her to take some courses, this would be highly encouraged. Good luck!
While I wouldn't choose a .22 for a defensive round myself, I wouldn't dismiss it as a reasonable choice for a lady. It has little recoil, promoting accurate shooting, and is cheap to practice with. Go price ammo.
I've lived in the country most of my life, and have shot a lot of varmints with a .22. I think the round does more damage to a critter than most people give it credit for. The Stinger rounds are a great choice. I've owned six automatic pistols in that caliber, and the only one that wasn't utterly reliable was a Walther P-22. (That gun normally has a fine reputation.) My favorites have been the High Standard models. Browning and Ruger make fine versions as well.
I've lived in the country most of my life, and have shot a lot of varmints with a .22. I think the round does more damage to a critter than most people give it credit for. The Stinger rounds are a great choice. I've owned six automatic pistols in that caliber, and the only one that wasn't utterly reliable was a Walther P-22. (That gun normally has a fine reputation.) My favorites have been the High Standard models. Browning and Ruger make fine versions as well.
Getting back to the basics. This lady needs something SMALL, convenient and that she will learn with. The 22 is nowhere considered a great defensive round, but is better than your bare hands. Small .25s, 32s, 380s and 38s are really the upper end limit for this purpose. She needs something she can handle easily and safely. Yes the Glocks, 1911s, etc are better, but they won't get carried!
Just to stir the pot and make myself some new enemies...I would not recommend a .380 for any purpose. I think it is a virtually useless cartridge. Why? Because I think it stretches or exceeds the limits of the guns chambered for it, small pocket pistols. The recoil of a .380 in those light guns is excessive. You have to pull it back on target after each shot, and with something that unpleasant to shoot, you are always going to find excuses not to practice...an important factor for anyone who is not a gun enthusiast. I think 32.ACP is about the practical limit in a little pocket pistol. .25 is okay, a hot .22 is okay. And if you are going to a gun with enough mass to handle the .380, there are better cartridges, like the nine mil. The same with the lightweight Smith revolvers in .357. Light and comfortable to carry, as long as you never have to shoot it. As always, YMMV.
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- #38
Out of curiosity, what would you consider a "hot" .25 or .22?
I agree. It's counter-intuitive, but a 9mm Luger handgun usually has less felt recoil than a .380, even in the same-sized gun, due to the differences in blow-back (typical .380 and smaller calibers )and delayed blow-back (Browning system in 9mm and larger calibers) or gas-operated (H&K P7 series) systems.
A "hot" 22 would be something like a Stinger. A little extra velocity.
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