Blade Chatter: What Is It and Is it Real?

[Alex Jr]

So, I just used the LC this morning with a fresh Bic. I'll have to get a few more shaves in with it, and do a head to head with the SC to really get a read, but my initial impressions seem to match what others have reported.

In comparison to the SC, the LC feels a little smoother. It might be a hair milder than the SC too. I'll need to take some closeups to compare but based on feel I think my SC has just a little bit more exposure. Hard to tell yet. I think it's a little more forgiving. Whether that is down to the comb design or the slightly less rigid blade clamping, I don't know. I can say that the rigidity of the LC is still good enough for my face. The comb feels nice, not as nice as the Fatip, but not distracting, and it seems like it actually engages the skin a little more even at the fairly shallow angle that this razor requires.

Again, this is all based on one use, but I think I could be pretty happy with either of the News.

Interesting that the LC seemed a little smoother, I’d bet it would be the other way around.

Do you find the SC more tolerant for steeper angles than the LC? I never seem to click with razors that require a shallow approach like the Game changer for example.

Thank you for your feedback sir.

 

[Galibier_Numero_Un]

I'm not saying I didn't try it, I was more saying that if I tried it with a new razor I hadn't yet shaved with, it wouldn't tell me anything about chatter because...It's the blade that chatters, not the razor.

The Tatara has a good sandwich clamp so a mock shave may tell you it won't chatter.
But actually shaving with it is a different experience due to the amount of blade reveal. It really does chatter against my stubble.

Same goes for the old ATT, whereas the Windsor had absolutely no chatter due to minimal blade showing.

Chatter is something I can feel right away. Either there's chatter or there isn't.
Hope this clarifies my previous post.

It's probably as close as we're going to get without being in the same room ;-)

My key point (using a Masamune as an example and shaving at pretty much the "recommended" angle) was that I'm hearing the same sound from my mock shave as with a real shave. I can't recognize a "tinny" sound overlay during a real shave.

This might just come down to hearing discrimination.

OTOH, feeling chatter - I can easily see that one, or at least, I recognize certain skipping sensations as being chatter, possibly accompanied by a dull blade.

... Thom

 

[Lane101]

Got to Marshalls or TJ Max and buy a $5 TTO. You can experience all three discomforts. I used one for a week and half on a trip and it was just terrible. The tinny orchestra will also wake you up!

Two of my three daily drivers are low cost TTO razors including a Weishi 9306 long handle and a Razorock Adjust (rebranded Baili picked up on sale for under $8). Both work really well. I've never experienced anything that could be considered blade chatter, now unusual audible feedback and they, along with my King C. Gillette three piece razor, all deliver comfortable shaves.

 

[Lane101]

It does exist.
Measuring blade chatter seems absurd to me. Shave quality, you say. That is a very subjective concept in the first place. If you ask the majority of members here they will tell you less blade chatter means a better shave. It is the predominant mantra.

I have a huge number of razors and definitely prefer razors with more chatter. I get better shaves with them and less cuts.

Hi Ivan, what specific symptoms or characteristics of your shaves are you describing as blade chatter? Anything beyond audible feedback?

 

[Lane101]

It's probably as close as we're going to get without being in the same room ;-)

My key point (using a Masamune as an example and shaving at pretty much the "recommended" angle) was that I'm hearing the same sound from my mock shave as with a real shave. I can't recognize a "tinny" sound overlay during a real shave.

This might just come down to hearing discrimination.

OTOH, feeling chatter - I can easily see that one, or at least, I recognize certain skipping sensations as being chatter, possibly accompanied by a dull blade.

... Thom

Thanks, supports that the blade skipping is a well recognized definition of blade chatter.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Interesting that the LC seemed a little smoother, I’d bet it would be the other way around.

Do you find the SC more tolerant for steeper angles than the LC? I never seem to click with razors that require a shallow approach like the Game changer for example.

Thank you for your feedback sir.

No, if anything it's the opposite, although they both seem to work better shallow. The SC has a pretty narrow window of effective angle, and it is shallow. I didn't pay much attention to that with the LC this morning but it might have been more flexible. To compare to the Fatip which you asked about before, with that razor I prefer a steeper angle for sure.

 

[Lane101]

Blade chatter creates a unique "tinny" sound which is not a characteristic razor sound like you mention with the mock shave.

All TTO razors make that tinny sound, some more than others. But for me, the TTO design is a no go.

Then there are razors that have good clamping but leave too much blade sticking out, like theTatara for example, causing the blade to flex against stubble and cause an unpleasant experience.



I can definitely feel the unpleasantness of chatter on the skin, in addition to the tinny sound it generates whilst flexing against the stubble.

It's a very uncomfortable feeling on the skin and it's the #1 reason why I have gone through over 80 razors and stuck with just a couple in the end.

Thanks nav, by "unpleasantness of chatter" are you referring to the blade skipping or just a rough/uncomfortable shave concurrent with the audible feedback you referred to as "that tinny sound"?

 

[Galibier_Numero_Un]

Thanks, supports that the blade skipping is a well recognized definition of blade chatter.

I don't understand why you'd draw this conclusion - that the sound of a mock shave matches that of a real shave. All I take away from this is that the razor has resonant characteristics (mock shave) that perhaps amplifies the sound of a singing blade. Whether the blade is singing or not is open to question.

How about the effects of a dull blade?

In a corking experiment last week, I over-corked a blade, in a razor that doesn't show signs of chatter to me (with a wide range of blades) and I could possibly describe the skipping as chatter.

Now, a dull blade presents more resistance to cutting, and therefore loads up the blade with energy, so perhaps I was experiencing chattering. The key experience however was one of tugging, pulling and barely cutting - a blade I ditched midway through my first pass.

At the end of the day, if a dull blade is out of your "use window" then I'd consider any chatter that it might generate to be instructional, but irrelevant from a practical standpoint. It's a blade you'll never want to use again ;-)

Furthermore, this feeds into my "just enough, but not too much" theory - that sometimes you can over engineer a parameter which might have negative effects on another parameter. Just enough is fine with me ;-)

We're definitely getting into angels on the head of a pin territory

... Thom

 

[Quaznoid]

Never heard of it until I joined B&B and I don’t know what it is.

 

[zifnab]

Since I started shaving with a AC razor, it puts another perspective as well. I definitely prefer the Shield Evolution to any other DE razor except for Overlander. Stiff blade and the Shield Evo clamps down on that blade HARD. So I agree with others saying razors that clamp firmly definitely makes a difference.

 

[Wgg2017]

The Tatara has a good sandwich clamp so a mock shave may tell you it won't chatter.
But actually shaving with it is a different experience due to the amount of blade reveal. It really does chatter against my stubble.

I thought the Tatara razors would work well for me also, based on blade clamping, but they didn’t. Tried the Masamune and Nodachi and neither was great in my trouble spots.

Never heard of it until I joined B&B and I don’t know what it is.

Be thankful you don’t know what it is. On 90% of my face I can use anything, including a Mach 3. However, on either side Adam’s apple, I get terrible chatter with most DE razors and ingrowns and irritation with carts. For me, it comes down to the way my whiskers grow in that area. They’re thick and lay flat against the skin. It’s a pain in the a** to shave those spots.

 

[muzichead]

My favorite razor is the blackbird. It has zero chatter and the huge blade exposure gives me an unmatched BBS.
Guys find this razor aggressive...Whereas I find it butter smooth as it mows through the stubble with no chatter and the exposure gives a deep BBS without any skin irritation.

This is the part where ymmv comes in best imo, my last 2 razors, the Timeless Ti95DC and the Ti Blackbird have always given me an audible shave and I use the intended angle for both razors which is in the 30 degree neighborhood and easier to maintain with the TiBB for me as the angle is built into the top cap. I no longer have the Ti95DC because the shave wasn't as superior to the TiBB which nets me a BBS that lasts in the 18+hr range and then some shaves from yesterday I have so little stubble at the 24hr mark that when I have shaved at 24hrs I've always had irritation and is the reason why I shave every 48hrs instead. I feel the audibility of the razors has helped with my shaves as it helps me to know that the area is clean shaven prior to rubbing it with my fingers to check. Maybe its my beard and the way it grows or maybe not, I just know that the audibility helps me throughout my shaves.

...and your absolutely right about the unmatched BBS from the Ti Blackbird!! It's the reason it's the only razor in my cabinet anymore...

I will be getting the Henson+++ in a couple of months. Fingers crossed it'll be efficient enough as I really like the geometry.

I have thought on an occasion or two to give this razor a chance because of its geometry being so close to the Blackbird. Who knows, maybe one day I will...

 

[Lane101]

I don't understand why you'd draw this conclusion - that the sound of a mock shave matches that of a real shave. All I take away from this is that the razor has resonant characteristics (mock shave) that perhaps amplifies the sound of a singing blade. Whether the blade is singing or not is open to question.

How about the effects of a dull blade?

In a corking experiment last week, I over-corked a blade, in a razor that doesn't show signs of chatter to me (with a wide range of blades) and I could possibly describe the skipping as chatter.

Now, a dull blade presents more resistance to cutting, and therefore loads up the blade with energy, so perhaps I was experiencing chattering. The key experience however was one of tugging, pulling and barely cutting - a blade I ditched midway through my first pass.

At the end of the day, if a dull blade is out of your "use window" then I'd consider any chatter that it might generate to be instructional, but irrelevant from a practical standpoint. It's a blade you'll never want to use again ;-)

Furthermore, this feeds into my "just enough, but not too much" theory - that sometimes you can over engineer a parameter which might have negative effects on another parameter. Just enough is fine with me ;-)

We're definitely getting into angels on the head of a pin territory

... Thom

Hi, My last post was just commenting on your last sentence on how you recognize skipping sensations that you are feeling when shaving. Read that as something different than the sounds you were commenting on earlier in your post.

 

[Galibier_Numero_Un]

Hi, My last post was just commenting on your last sentence on how you recognize skipping sensations that you are feeling when shaving. Read that as something different than the sounds you were commenting on earlier in your post.

I think you're referring to this post (I had to dig through this thread to find it):

It's probably as close as we're going to get without being in the same room ;-)

My key point (using a Masamune as an example and shaving at pretty much the "recommended" angle) was that I'm hearing the same sound from my mock shave as with a real shave. I can't recognize a "tinny" sound overlay during a real shave.

This might just come down to hearing discrimination.

OTOH, feeling chatter - I can easily see that one, or at least, I recognize certain skipping sensations as being chatter, possibly accompanied by a dull blade.

... Thom

Quite honestly, nav wore me out. I got tired of asking the same question over and over again. He never agreed to comparing the sound of a "chattering razor" to the sound that razor made with a mock shave. All it would have taken was 20 seconds before his next shave.

Since he critiqued a Tatara, I used it as an example since I own a Masamune. I found the razor's shaving sound and the sound of a mock shave to be indistinguisable. This is a razor he identified as chattering, so I was listening for a "tinny" overtone he mentioned to the sound I heard from my mock shave. I heard none.

As far as skipping is concerned, this isn't in my vocabulary. I've felt tugging and pulling, and I've found this to result from either a dull blade or a blade that's too mild for a particular razor. I suppose you could call this skipping. You could call it "Sam" and it would have equal meaning to me

Two nights ago I loaded a 7 O'clock Green into my Masamune. I pulled the blade out halfway through my first pass because it was tugging, pulling, and barely cutting. Out of curiosity, I loaded it into my Overlander, and voila! It was cutting smoothly.

Blade mismatch? Skipping? "Sam"? All 3?

I'm sorry that I put the time into this thread. It wore me out and I obviously have not been communicating effectively.

... Thom

 

[Lane101]

I think you're referring to this post (I had to dig through this thread to find it):


Quite honestly, nav wore me out. I got tired of asking the same question over and over again. He never agreed to comparing the sound of a "chattering razor" to the sound that razor made with a mock shave. All it would have taken was 20 seconds before his next shave.

Since he critiqued a Tatara, I used it as an example since I own a Masamune. I found the razor's shaving sound and the sound of a mock shave to be indistinguisable. This is a razor he identified as chattering, so I was listening for a "tinny" overtone he mentioned to the sound I heard from my mock shave. I heard none.

As far as skipping is concerned, this isn't in my vocabulary. I've felt tugging and pulling, and I've found this to result from either a dull blade or a blade that's too mild for a particular razor. I suppose you could call this skipping. You could call it "Sam" and it would have equal meaning to me

Two nights ago I loaded a 7 O'clock Green into my Masamune. I pulled the blade out halfway through my first pass because it was tugging, pulling, and barely cutting. Out of curiosity, I loaded it into my Overlander, and voila! It was cutting smoothly.

Blade mismatch? Skipping? "Sam"? All 3?

I'm sorry that I put the time into this thread. It wore me out and I obviously have not been communicating effectively.

... Thom

Thank you. Your input is much appreciated.

 

[WuChangXD]

Clamping force increases the stiffness of the blade. I have an ALlupo with an unclamped blade (probably due to machining variations), and even though it is very small and I used a macro to get a picture of it, I could easily use my fingernail to deform the blade, and when I used him he was very loud and had a chattering sensation that made me feel uncomfortable, and the GC84OC provided a very tight clamping force that was very smooth, and I think that the sound came from two sources, the first one being the sound of the blade chattering against the beard, and the second one being the amplification of the tiny sound by the frame cavity. I think there are two sources of sound, the first is the sound of the blade and the whiskers trembling, the second is the sound of the knife frame cavity amplification of small

 

[kaankkaraman]

Blade chatter is real but not important in my point of view. My Alpa Outlaw chatters like crazy but gives clean, pleasant and comfy shaves. I've used Nodachi has zero chatter and shaves were so rough. I can not judge a razor with its blade rigidity.

 

[Galaktus]

I remember seeing that at some point. This is a sales demonstration designed to make the Schick look superior. It does point out how the thickness of the Schick blade makes it more rigid. So far, so good.

Still, I don't think shaving a bar of soap is really representative of the normal shaving situation. When shaving the face, the forces placed on the blade push it up towards the cap and in toward the edge, not downward away from the cap. When shaving the face, a razor blade is not a wedge.

The razor is placed against a softer surface, wether it be a face or a bar of soap. The blade itself it used to cut away a softer medium, hair or soap.
Yes, whiskers are different than a bar of soap. But Schick needed a physical object to demonstrate the shaving properties, and I guess they picked a bar of soap.
I will admit that I have no idea which would need more force to shave. Hair has been described as being stronger than copper wite of equal diameter. And the blade would be met with variable resistance due to random hair follicle spacing on the skin.

 

[NorthernSoul]

The razor is placed against a softer surface, wether it be a face or a bar of soap. The blade itself it used to cut away a softer medium, hair or soap.
Yes, whiskers are different than a bar of soap. But Schick needed a physical object to demonstrate the shaving properties, and I guess they picked a bar of soap.
I will admit that I have no idea which would need more force to shave. Hair has been described as being stronger than copper wite of equal diameter. And the blade would be met with variable resistance due to random hair follicle spacing on the skin.

The question is not how much force, but where the force is being applied and in which direction.

If you shave a solid block of a material, you get a sliver of material that wedges itself on top of the blade. That tends to push the blade edge down. That is different from the situation when shaving small individual whiskers, which basically fall away as each one is cut.

Whiskers are a different story because they are small individual pieces that can't push the blade down. The cutting force on the blade edge tends to push the blade edge up and inward from the edge. This is the direction that razors such as the R89 are designed to resist best.

 

[The Blackadder]

Well, I shaved with Henson + and ++ for months, got mediocre shaves and plenty of irritation. On the other hand, my Leaf Twig, Gillette Tech and Superspeed provide me with great comfortable shaves and blade clamping is something they are terrible at