Here is a good comparison picture; SC (left), LC (right) (originally posted by @Esox). Note difference in blade support and cutouts on the corners of the SC which fit into posts on the corners of the top cap. Also, some people say they feel the comb more with the SC, but i think it's fine with either one.
Blade Chatter: What Is It and Is it Real?
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Here is a good comparison picture; SC (left), LC (right) (originally posted by @Esox). Note difference in blade support and cutouts on the corners of the SC which fit into posts on the corners of the top cap. Also, some people say they feel the comb more with the SC, but i think it's fine with either one.
I remember seeing that at some point. This is a sales demonstration designed to make the Schick look superior. It does point out how the thickness of the Schick blade makes it more rigid. So far, so good.
Still, I don't think shaving a bar of soap is really representative of the normal shaving situation. When shaving the face, the forces placed on the blade push it up towards the cap and in toward the edge, not downward away from the cap. When shaving the face, a razor blade is not a wedge.
Yup!
The Henson++ and Tile have amazing rigidity!!
Unfortunately not efficient enough for me but a fantastic design nonetheless.
I will be getting the Henson+++ in a couple of months. Fingers crossed it'll be efficient enough as I really like the geometry.
The Twig has been one of the worst razor for me because of the chatter. It is not possible, at least for me, to use it ATG.
Now, as always what does not work for me might work for other people. There is a reason why this razor is so popular, and at the end as I was saying earlier on this topic the issue is that given how diverse our combinations of face/skin/whiskers are, it is always tedious to assume what might work for each of us. And in my opinion it is the main difficulty in wet shaving, and I even wonder if it is not one the main factor that contributed to the success of cartridge razors. Not everyone want to spend too much time and money on finding what work. But I disgress.
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Last night, I pulled out my Masamune and did a "mock" shave, followed by a real one - this, with a light stubble (24 hour growth after a really close shave the day before).
I can't hear a difference or any "tinny" sound accompanying the sound I hear with my mock shave.
With my two Overlanders and Masamune, I shave at pretty much their recommended angles (riding the cap and SB equally).
Question: are you a steep shaver? I can see where clamping issues would be exacerbated by this.
While I may eventually reach this point, it would be presumptuous of me to ascribe causality, and I'm not contesting what you're experiencing. In other words, I don't feel confident in looking at specs and photos and deciding what will or will not work for me.
This discussion heightens my curiosity to pick up a Henson ++. I have a +, but several individuals with similar taste in razors (including @T Bone), continue to experience the ++ floating to the top of their list.
... Thom
"Blade Chatter" is a term to describe what those people feel when they get sub-optimal shaves with less supported blades. It could be something else entirely. Does that person just not get along with the razor? Could be! Has their been any razors designed exactly the same with one completely supported by top and base plate to the edge of the blade and one not? NOPE! So how do we know if it is what is actually happening? In all honesty, unless we did video of a razor blade during a shave at the microscope level, we have no idea what actually goes on with the blade for 100% certainty.
Everyone is trying to figure out what works for them and trying to identify characteristics of a razor that are visually identifiable so that they can narrow down the dozens of choices before them when they are looking to make their next purchase and blade clamping is one of them.
Do they shave different? I think so. HOWEVER, "sound is feel" - and if one sounds "louder" people subconsciously says it "feels" differently than something else. I think a well clamped and not-so-well clamped blade feels different on my face. I think I can also feel the difference of a very thin hollow grind straight and a heavy grind near wedge. So who really knows.
Everyone is trying to figure out what works for them and trying to identify characteristics of a razor that are visually identifiable so that they can narrow down the dozens of choices before them when they are looking to make their next purchase and blade clamping is one of them.
Do they shave different? I think so. HOWEVER, "sound is feel" - and if one sounds "louder" people subconsciously says it "feels" differently than something else. I think a well clamped and not-so-well clamped blade feels different on my face. I think I can also feel the difference of a very thin hollow grind straight and a heavy grind near wedge. So who really knows.
Great point regarding blade reveal. I agree.
Regarding blade bending - I think that is all marketing BS (just my opinion).
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- #69
Thank you, very nicely stated. A key reason for my OP was how often the term "Blade Chatter" is used when it is not well defined and to-date, primarily confirmed via anecdotal perception. I'm curious as I'm on of the group who has never experienced anything I would perceive as blade vibration."Blade Chatter" is a term to describe what those people feel when they get sub-optimal shaves with less supported blades. It could be something else entirely. Does that person just not get along with the razor? Could be! Has their been any razors designed exactly the same with one completely supported by top and base plate to the edge of the blade and one not? NOPE! So how do we know if it is what is actually happening? In all honesty, unless we did video of a razor blade during a shave at the microscope level, we have no idea what actually goes on with the blade for 100% certainty.
Everyone is trying to figure out what works for them and trying to identify characteristics of a razor that are visually identifiable so that they can narrow down the dozens of choices before them when they are looking to make their next purchase and blade clamping is one of them.
Do they shave different? I think so. HOWEVER, "sound is feel" - and if one sounds "louder" people subconsciously says it "feels" differently than something else. I think a well clamped and not-so-well clamped blade feels different on my face. I think I can also feel the difference of a very thin hollow grind straight and a heavy grind near wedge. So who really knows.
So far we still have the following list of blade chatter symptoms (posted earlier above), that the user can identify during a shave, so far we really have the following three:
- Blade skipping across skin during a shave potentially causing nicks
- Audible feedback perceived as blade chatter (anecdotal and varies by individual)
- Detectable blade movement within the razor, typically due to user error in failing to adequately tighten a razors blade retention mechanism
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- #70
Hi Ivan, Your post makes sense and is consistent with the Blackland video on the topic linked above. Have you ever seen any type of study that actually measures blade chatter and it's impact on shave quality? To-date everything we've seen is based on personal anecdotal perceptions with a range of views from "it does not exist" to strong testimonials on the topic relating audible feedback to chatter.
It does exist.
Measuring blade chatter seems absurd to me. Shave quality, you say. That is a very subjective concept in the first place. If you ask the majority of members here they will tell you less blade chatter means a better shave. It is the predominant mantra.
I have a huge number of razors and definitely prefer razors with more chatter. I get better shaves with them and less cuts.
Can I just point out that my loudest razor has the most rigid blade? That would be a GEM 1912. The blade is as rigid as they come. I don't think it is chattering, whatever that is supposed to mean.
The "audible feedback" is basically the GEM 1912 razor acting like an old Victrola.
I really doubt a mock shave is going to tell whether the blade is going to chatter or not.
I don't have a set shaving angle. The razor dictates the optimal range.
For me, TTO, high blade reveal and a lack of blade bend all cause the blade to chatter. This causes skin discomfort and a poor shave.
My main razor at the moment is a Karve Overlander. It has reasonable blade support, above average, but nothing exceptional. I have had my best shaves with it. However, they are inconsistant. For example, the last two shaves with a first and second use Persona lab blue were relatively rough compared to the two before. I couldn't even go atg like I normally do. I also had this experience with Gillette Platinums.
If I may be honest, I have no idea what is causing the inconsistency. However, I will say that one of my theories is blade inconsistency. I've put multiple new blades under a microscope and it was not a pretty sight (you can search for my pic of the Gillette platinum on here). Guess what... The same bad "blade chattery" rough shave "descriptor" that I used to use for unsupported razors was similar to what I felt the last two shaves. I'm baffled.
I think there is more to the story but I have no idea what it is. I still feel I can tell the difference and I still contest I like rigid razors and heavy grind rigid straight razors but I have a feeling not every blade is the same in terms of perfect edge condition. I'm curious if others have this inconsistancy with their best razors?
I thought stiff blades meant quiet razors. My heavy grind straights are silent assassins. Then I tried a GEM. Loudest thing I ever heard. Another theory bites the dust.
Got to Marshalls or TJ Max and buy a $5 TTO. You can experience all three discomforts. I used one for a week and half on a trip and it was just terrible. The tinny orchestra will also wake you up!
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I'm not trying to be pedantic, but rather than doubt whether a mock shave will tell you anything about chatter (I never said that), why don't you try it, in order to hear a razor's acoustic properties (resonances)?
When shaving with a Masamune (a razor you contend that chatters), I can't detect a different sound from that produced by my mock shave, and that's the reason for my question.
It's also why I asked you about shaving angles. I'm trying to understand what your doing differently that leads you to believe you're hearing chatter.
... Thom
Go try a Yaqi Katana, the blade juts out directly and has zero support. It is wildly efficient, but extremely dangerous. Bends like hell.
If you load it with an injector blade it is much better. (but has alignment issues).
I'm not saying I didn't try it, I was more saying that if I tried it with a new razor I hadn't yet shaved with, it wouldn't tell me anything about chatter because...It's the blade that chatters, not the razor.
The Tatara has a good sandwich clamp so a mock shave may tell you it won't chatter.
But actually shaving with it is a different experience due to the amount of blade reveal. It really does chatter against my stubble.
Same goes for the old ATT, whereas the Windsor had absolutely no chatter due to minimal blade showing.
Chatter is something I can feel right away. Either there's chatter or there isn't.
Hope this clarifies my previous post.
So, I just used the LC this morning with a fresh Bic. I'll have to get a few more shaves in with it, and do a head to head with the SC to really get a read, but my initial impressions seem to match what others have reported.
In comparison to the SC, the LC feels a little smoother. It might be a hair milder than the SC too. I'll need to take some closeups to compare but based on feel I think my SC has just a little bit more exposure. Hard to tell yet. I think it's a little more forgiving. Whether that is down to the comb design or the slightly less rigid blade clamping, I don't know. I can say that the rigidity of the LC is still good enough for my face. The comb feels nice, not as nice as the Fatip, but not distracting, and it seems like it actually engages the skin a little more even at the fairly shallow angle that this razor requires.
Again, this is all based on one use, but I think I could be pretty happy with either of the News.
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