What is the thumbnail test? return to 1k with straight SR and after how do you rate the bevel?
bevel setting question
- Thread starter Staggers and Jags
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Another thing I try to look for is to determine whether or not the bevel is actually in a straight line with the spine flats. As an experiment I’ve set the bevel on a razor and immediately took it to an 8000 or even a 12,000 grit stone to see which areas are not making contact. To my surprise more often than not I begin to get polish at the base of the bevel and not the cutting edge. This could mean a couple of things though…
Number one, it could indicate that the polishing stone may not be flat in which case it will contact the base of the bevel first if the higher gritstone is slightly convex which is a real possibility.
The other possibility is that the bevel is slightly convex towards the cutting edge. This could be the result of using a little slurry on the 1000 grit stone or whatever stone you’re setting the bevel on.
So in my mind it’s not a simple matter of whether or not the bevel is “set” (striations all the way out to the edge and cutting) as much as whether or not the bevel is properly set up and ready for the rest of the progression. I’m really trying to figure out if the bevel is really in a straight line from the spine all the way out to the cutting edge before I go forward. I hope this makes sense.
Number one, it could indicate that the polishing stone may not be flat in which case it will contact the base of the bevel first if the higher gritstone is slightly convex which is a real possibility.
The other possibility is that the bevel is slightly convex towards the cutting edge. This could be the result of using a little slurry on the 1000 grit stone or whatever stone you’re setting the bevel on.
So in my mind it’s not a simple matter of whether or not the bevel is “set” (striations all the way out to the edge and cutting) as much as whether or not the bevel is properly set up and ready for the rest of the progression. I’m really trying to figure out if the bevel is really in a straight line from the spine all the way out to the cutting edge before I go forward. I hope this makes sense.
For me it makes sense and even a lot.
another reason for this may be the pressure/twist of the edge to eat the stone with the bevel setting. For a fully hollowed blade with flex, it's sensible.
With a plainly hollowed blade, I adjust the subject by finishing the adjustment of the bevel with the same pressure as in finishing. Others will settle the subject during the progression. each his own way.
another reason for this may be the pressure/twist of the edge to eat the stone with the bevel setting. For a fully hollowed blade with flex, it's sensible.
With a plainly hollowed blade, I adjust the subject by finishing the adjustment of the bevel with the same pressure as in finishing. Others will settle the subject during the progression. each his own way.
A bevel is fully set when,1. The bevels are flat from heel to toe. 2. Flat and in the proper bevel angle. 3The flat bevels are meeting fully at the edge, no shiny reflections.
Until you have achieved all 3 goals, the bevel is not FULLY set.
Use colored ink, it is quick, easy and definitive. It is either coming off or not. If not, find out why. Doing more of the same thing and expecting a different result is…Not Working.
If you are honing at the back of the bevel and the bevels are not meeting, either you have not removed enough steel to completely flatten the bevel, not using enough pressure or using too much pressure on a hollow ground razor and lifting the edge off the stone. Ink will tell you.
If you are honing on the back of the bevel, try adding a single layer of tape to increase the bevel angle. Again, use ink to mark your progress.
That a stone is not flat enough is rarely the answer, unless it is a brand new stone, the razor will just contact the high spots. Steel will still be removed, the razor will not conform to the stone.
Until you have achieved all 3 goals, the bevel is not FULLY set.
Use colored ink, it is quick, easy and definitive. It is either coming off or not. If not, find out why. Doing more of the same thing and expecting a different result is…Not Working.
If you are honing at the back of the bevel and the bevels are not meeting, either you have not removed enough steel to completely flatten the bevel, not using enough pressure or using too much pressure on a hollow ground razor and lifting the edge off the stone. Ink will tell you.
If you are honing on the back of the bevel, try adding a single layer of tape to increase the bevel angle. Again, use ink to mark your progress.
That a stone is not flat enough is rarely the answer, unless it is a brand new stone, the razor will just contact the high spots. Steel will still be removed, the razor will not conform to the stone.
An unset bevel can cut hair. A HHT might fail but the edge gives a good shave. A nail test, done correctly, will tell you 'something' about the bevel but not everything. Doing one test does not mean you passed, or failed, or that you need to do another test or not do another test.
I don't use the HHT - never did. Very early on I shaved arm hair to tell me when I was establishing an edge. I learned early on that cutting arm hair doesn't mean all that much.
I have used the nail test, but rarely; and don't remember the last time.
I can cut cut fruits and vegetables with a credit card sharpened on 600x w/d... but I don't want to shave with that edge.
Lotta people hone and test a lotta ways. Doesn't matter. Everyone finds their own way. Do what you want, do what makes sense to you. Ask 100 people what they do and you'll get 200 answers.
I found that 'learning' tests took away from learning feedback. So I went with feedback. In comparison, testing seems like parlor tricks to me. I learned to associate feel on the stone with edge results. It's not an unusual premise but for some reason it is met with a lot of snide comments and resistance in certain circles.
I've said it too many times to count, if I can get a 3 pass shave off the bevel setter I'm there or very close. Learning the feedback that got the edge there is the best benchmark. Foolproof actually. But it takes a lot of time and practice, failures and successes to get that process down pat. Nail the bevel, clean it up correctly, and the rest is gravy.
Am I the only one who can't stand the feel of a sharp (or less sharp) razor on their fingernail? It gives me cold sweat & goosebumps. I really can't use it.
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- #27
thanks for the advice man. ive slowly been learning to l;isten to what the stone and razor are telling me. i do have the tendancy though to obsess o getting the bevel just right. iv found when it cand shave hair weith less than weight of the blade comfortably and that it feels a very particular way on the thumb nail that ive got it set or atleast i thik its set well usually at that point when i go to the next stoneup in the progression it somtimes will be very |stiucky" when i finally get up to thwe 8 k. it starts feeling like its hydroplaningf. thgen when i move to the 12 it usuallyu starts hydroplaning usually in the first 5-10 passes. i push it there till i feel like its not changing anymore and afer stropping. i usually get a really really keen but comfortable shave and i see to be getting better at iit every btme i do it
My mentor told me to start out with a synthetic 1K stone. (Not necessarily his preference), but he took my needs and finances into consideration. He told me what to look for, how to stroke the stone and then had me stop.
His words were, "no bevel no edge." He was showing me that one can shave with nothing but a set bevel (albeit it wont be like driving a sports car). He then ran me through a set of 4 naguras and had me shave after each one. The shave improved incrementally from "a little rough" to, very passable for a beginner.
His point, you can shave with a set bevel.
His words were, "no bevel no edge." He was showing me that one can shave with nothing but a set bevel (albeit it wont be like driving a sports car). He then ran me through a set of 4 naguras and had me shave after each one. The shave improved incrementally from "a little rough" to, very passable for a beginner.
His point, you can shave with a set bevel.
For what it’s worth here’s my bevel process:
Lap bevel set stone & either a 5K or 8K (I’ll explain the higher grit stones in a minute…)
1- Hone on either a 1k or 3K until the edge cuts easily at skin level
2- Do 10-15 strokes on a higher grit stone and inspect for full contact with stone. If I see any areas that don’t appear to have been affected by the higher grit stone I’ll go back to the bevel setting stone with a dozen light passes to really level out the edge bevels and re check on the higher grit stones for even contact.
3- Go back and forth between the bevel setting stone and the “proofing stone” until I’m confident that I’m hitting the entire edge bevels within 10-15 strokes on the higher grit stones.
4- Continue with desired progression once the bevel is really set up and ready for the journey.
My point is that just because the razor may be cutting after X amount of work on a 1K or 3K doesn’t mean that I’m satisfied that the razor is actually ready to move through the rest of the progression. I’m looking for and eliminating any uneven contacts in the entire surface area of the edge bevels.
Lap bevel set stone & either a 5K or 8K (I’ll explain the higher grit stones in a minute…)
1- Hone on either a 1k or 3K until the edge cuts easily at skin level
2- Do 10-15 strokes on a higher grit stone and inspect for full contact with stone. If I see any areas that don’t appear to have been affected by the higher grit stone I’ll go back to the bevel setting stone with a dozen light passes to really level out the edge bevels and re check on the higher grit stones for even contact.
3- Go back and forth between the bevel setting stone and the “proofing stone” until I’m confident that I’m hitting the entire edge bevels within 10-15 strokes on the higher grit stones.
4- Continue with desired progression once the bevel is really set up and ready for the journey.
My point is that just because the razor may be cutting after X amount of work on a 1K or 3K doesn’t mean that I’m satisfied that the razor is actually ready to move through the rest of the progression. I’m looking for and eliminating any uneven contacts in the entire surface area of the edge bevels.
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