Bevel is king but how often do you set it?

[Stapelfeld]

Really quick question here related to honing and specifically bevel setting.

So far I learned that setting a bevel is king, this takes priority, if you don't set the bevel you cannot progress into those higher grit stones.

My question is let's say you set the bevel correctly and you go to those higher grit stones, you get some good shaves but its time to hone that razor again.

Do you need to reset the bevel once again or is the bevel already been set and do you just start at lets say a 5k and make your way up to the finisher?

Thank you in advance!

 

[lightfoot]

I suspect 5K is a good general starting point if the edge doesn’t have any chips or dings but more often than not it will.

A nice 2000 or 3000 grit stone can be good alternatives to a 1000 grit stone. This way even if you wanted to go all the way back down to reset the Bevel a 2000 or 3000 grit stone might give you an alternative to the typical 1000 grit If you wanted to play it safe and just reset every time. That would offer a bit more conservation of steel.

 

[Stapelfeld]

I suspect 5K is a good general starting point if the edge doesn’t have any chips or dings but more often than not it will.

A nice 2000 or 3000 grit stone can be good alternatives to a 1000 grit stone. This way even if you wanted to go all the way back down to reset the Bevel a 2000 or 3000 grit stone might give you an alternative to the typical 1000 grit If you wanted to play it safe and just reset every time. That would offer a bit more conservation of steel.

Thank you again for all the advice! I gifted my father a 2k shapton just so he can bring his chef knives back to life, guess I will use it from time to time haha that or spend more money on stones because you can never have enough of those

 

[Christian1212]

Depends on a bunch of factors. For me I might hit my finishing stone 2-3 times. After that I usually hit the 6k and or all the way back to the 2k. I can usually get 20-30 comfortable shaves between touch ups. Usually the only razors that go that long though are my nice ones - beaters and easy to replace razors get honed all the time for fun.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

You might also find, after you've been honing for a while, that you want to revisit some of your earlier bevel setting attempts, even if they were "okay" they might be improved as your skills advance.

 

[Empire straights]

If the edge isn't chipped or rolled, and the bevel is set correctly and the progression was done well(each stone completely erasing all scratches from the previous stone) you should need anything more than a half dozen light laps on your finisher about every 5-10 shaves depending on your steel and facial hair. Stropping well before AND after shaving is important too. Stropping after realigns your edge. It seems the edge will continue to deform if it sits without being stropped, plus it cleans/dries the edge/bevel so rust doesn't begin to take hold. If you get the bevel set well, on any type of blade I use and I got variety, maintaining that edge is really easy. Remember though, you have to COMPLETELY set the bevel and erase the previous stones scratch pattern COMPLETELY before going to the next step. You nail down those 2 things and strop good you'll be honing pro edges in no time most likely. Keeping consistent light pressure is key to getting them really keen. Don't use pressure, more time and less pressure is the way to get pro edges. A little bit of torque is ok but only enough to make sure the whole edge is making contact.

 

[Empire straights]

You might also find, after you've been honing for a while, that you want to revisit some of your earlier bevel setting attempts, even if they were "okay" they might be improved as your skills advance.

This is freaking sage advice right here. It works with revisiting stones that you didn't like initially. I've had an utter mound of rock I thought were mediocre to garbage that I had laying around and revisiting them later I pulled some diamonds out of the dumpster.

 

[Ravenonrock]

You might also find, after you've been honing for a while, that you want to revisit some of your earlier bevel setting attempts, even if they were "okay" they might be improved as your skills advance.

This is my experience now. Going back and spending quality time on a single razor, taking the time that’s needed and attention to detail on the lower grits. I know I have rushed the process at times, enthusiasm and eagerness to get things honed. Starting to have an appreciation for different metals also, how they react to the stones.

 

[Stapelfeld]

If the edge isn't chipped or rolled, and the bevel is set correctly and the progression was done well(each stone completely erasing all scratches from the previous stone) you should need anything more than a half dozen light laps on your finisher about every 5-10 shaves depending on your steel and facial hair. Stropping well before AND after shaving is important too. Stropping after realigns your edge. It seems the edge will continue to deform if it sits without being stropped, plus it cleans/dries the edge/bevel so rust doesn't begin to take hold. If you get the bevel set well, on any type of blade I use and I got variety, maintaining that edge is really easy. Remember though, you have to COMPLETELY set the bevel and erase the previous stones scratch pattern COMPLETELY before going to the next step. You nail down those 2 things and strop good you'll be honing pro edges in no time most likely. Keeping consistent light pressure is key to getting them really keen. Don't use pressure, more time and less pressure is the way to get pro edges. A little bit of torque is ok but only enough to make sure the whole edge is making contact.

A lot of good advice, reading this it just makes sense.

 

[Legion]

IMO, if the bevel is set properly, the razor should never have to see more than a finishing stone for the rest of its life (unless you have an accident).

 

[Empire straights]

IMO, if the bevel is set properly, the razor should never have to see more than a finishing stone for the rest of its life (unless you have an accident).

Agreed. Dings and things happen but get one shaving good and a couple light passes on something regularly and you're golden. This is when I got to notice more of the subtle differences in edge feel and then translated that to different uses with chisels and knives. As a constant knife user, and mediocre carpenter(not a master, I don't do scroll work, or old clock works/ instruments but I can build chicken coops, fences, sheds, and frame houses all day long. I can build most things structurally but I can't make them "Victorian" beautiful. The point though is those little differences in the edge feel can make a big difference with different types of wood and blade shape or different steels. As I grow older I notice myself focusing on this more obscure notes more and the entire thing is subjective but I see value in quick, frequent touch ups, but sometimes it happens because I just want to test those differences in edge feel. If you have a constant(I use a trans ark) you can always judge what the next stone changed. What a convoluted mess.

 

[Gamma]

Stropping and shaving wear the blade. The sides of the bevel along with the apex. The geometry will change with time/use.
The extent of the wear must be evaluated at the time of honing. There is no formula to follow. The feel of the shave is the main indicator.

The edge does not wear evenly across the length of my razors, some parts get more wear. stropping exacerbates that and the uneven plastic deformation, over time, adds up. My razors, when starting out, hopefully, have a very angular bevel. That triangle, line, bevel face, etc - can become convex to some degree and with continued use that curve will increase. Not to mention the apex getting worn and reshaped continually. Simple touchups on a stone sort of have the same affect as stropping in this regard. The prolong the time between honing, mostly. Eventually, I want a full re-set. How often that occurs is, as noted , is dependent on unknown variables. I judge the shave, maybe take two shaves to rule out user error, and go from there.

How much work needs to be done to correct the wear depends on how much wear there is. Also depends on how critical the user is.
The amount of wear on any edge would depend on the amount of use, the tenacity of the steel's wear resistance, and so on.

How to address the wear depends on the user...
Lotta people seem to panic over going back to a 1k, I don't understand that personally. I'd rather do 10 laps on a 1k, then 10 laps on a 5k, than just do 50 laps on a 5k. Whatever work needs to be done, has to get done. The wear pattern is what determines how much steel needs to be removed. Choosing a finer stone just means it takes longer to get the work done, it does not create less wear on the blade.

What anyone does though, is up to them - no rules here. As long as people like their edge how they got there is fine.

 

[lightfoot]

One option a newcomer might use to estimate how far back to go for a re-hone is coloring the bevel with a Sharpie.

Stropping can curve the bevel at the apex a bit so if the Sharpie is still showing at the apex after 3-5 strokes on a mid-grit hone then that can be a good indication that going back to a lower grit could make sense.

If the marker is almost gone then you might continue from a mid-grit hone.

It’s going to take ongoing effort to get this calibrated though…

 

[HVenture138]

Once should be enough assuming only normal wear, that is no chips or what have you.

 

[SparkyLB]

IMO, if the bevel is set properly, the razor should never have to see more than a finishing stone for the rest of its life (unless you have an accident).

Except for some of the practice and exploratory facets of re-setting a bevel, this post takes the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Gamma]

Depends on what someone is willing to settle for with an edge.
Factually, shaving and stropping take a toll on the blade, they create wear and that wear is uneven. Objectively, a finishing stone will not always be able to correct that wear. Forcing it to try might create an unpleasant edge. Sometimes the edge is just too 'out' to retrieve with a 12k. After a year of heavy use, daily stropping, the deformation along the apex can be notable.
Maybe it can be fixed with an 8k, maybe not. Maybe with a 5k, maybe it needs more though. If someone has 100 razors in rotations, it might never be noticed though.
I have had a couple razors relegated to 'paste' testing - no stones, just tuning up on paste. Even with 1x a week use, maybe 2x, they really do need a trip to the stones for a bevel reset. Someone else might have more latitude for the edge, and not care. I like the edge to feel freshly honed, not 'milked'. So while I can keep the edge cutting with abrasive compounds, or a 12k, or whatever, I am not liking that edge after a certain point. Daily sharpening to avoid wear doesn't seem to deliver an edge that makes me happy. But there was a guy that said he shaved for a few decades using a barber hone... so if his story was legit, then that sort of thing worked for him, but maybe not everyone else all the time.

 

[Steve56]

You might also find, after you've been honing for a while, that you want to revisit some of your earlier bevel setting attempts, even if they were "okay" they might be improved as your skills advance.

Agree, and a little explanation might help. I would define an ‘initial’ bevel set as the shaping of the the bevels to be of equal size and shape and of course meet in a straight line which is the edge. In an ideal world where all razors are properly ground and not excessively worn. As close to the ideal as you can get, but in any case the bevels have to meet perfectly at the edge all along the length of the cutting edge. What grit stone that you use depends on the condition of the razor.

Once you’ve achieved this, and properly developed/polished the bevels into a cutting edge through finer grits, routine edge maintenance should keep you from going back to the coarser conventional bevel setting stones. A well-worn edge usually gets a 4k Shapton Glass just to save time, but an 8k or 10k stone works just as well with more time involved. Lately I’ve been using a Kouseki 10k with a little koma or gujyo slurry on it. Koma is fast, and so is the K10k, the koma slurry just helps keep the stone from loading up.

 

[Frank Shaves]

In theory, @Legion is right - one time.

In practice, Matt (@Darth Scandalous) is right. Lots of factors. Over time, you may find yourself switching between finishing stones and other times going back to 8k or 4k or 1k.

 

[Gamma]

That opinion has never panned out in my house, and it's not for lack of trying.

Many publications for grinders, barbers, home sharpeners, all refer to periodic 'resetting' being something necessary at 'some point' dependent on frequency of use. It's like the DE guys that say you can get 100 shaves out of a blade. I can probably keep a razor cutting for many years in between honings too. I just wouldn't want to do that because that edge is not going to be what I want to work with.

A while back, I spent a good bit of time talking about this with the owner of a sharpening shop not too far away, he/they used to service many salons and barbers in the vicinity; he honed a straight for me once and did a stellar job. Anyway, yeah, he took razors and scissors in for full honings so they cut to peak performance all the time. The barbers and shop keepers would maintain them as long as possible on stones and compounds, but at some point they wanted to get the best possible edge back.

If keeping an edge going on a rock or a paste works for someone, that's their thing. Just like the guys doing 70-100 shaves on a DE blade. That's nothing I'd be interested in but if they're happy then they're happy. But then they tell me that I shouldn't dump a blade after x number of shaves, my thoughts lean toward, MYOB.

It would make sense to understand that not everyone is going to find ongoing finisher-only maintenance to yield the results they are looking for. People tend to think of honing and sharpening as a simple linear process but it isn't. Wear and associated wear mechanisms are dependent on methods of use and how the alloys behave; there are a boatload of variables that do not subscribe to simple metrics. The given geometry of a .4 µm wide bit of steel that gets worn unevenly across it's length isn't going to last forever by running it over 12k synthetic over and over again. After 4-5 tune ups the changes in the bevel/apex topology are seen easily with good magnification. It may be possible to continue cutting things with it, perhaps. But if all of this is just about sharp then I'd just pop a Feather in a Merkur HD and be done with it.

Seriously, any blade I have milked along with tune ups, pastes, etc, has always shaved 100% better after a full re-hone. I guess someone might say that the re-hone didn't 'have' to be done because it's a preference. I, however, will say it had to be done so I can be happy/happier with my shave. I certainly wouldn't tell someone else they had to do it this way, same as I wouldn't expect others to tell me I shouldn't need to do it this way.

 

[cugel]

My honing is improving bit by bit and I shave with a rotation of razors. So my standards are constantly changing for the better. I will go back to square one on a 1.5k and re-do it if I think a razor has a great edge but not up to my current "best". I enjoy it, so WTH.