Archiving music to the pc-help needed(long)

[Phog Allen]

Good morning gents. I've posted about this before but mainly in regards to id3 tagging which I still haven't figured out. First let me say that I am not a musically driven person. I mean I just don't obsess about it like some of my friends. I have managed to accumulate about 75 cds over the years. I am interested in digitising them. Purchasing downloadable music or P2P sharing is NOT on the menu. Just my own music stored digitally.

What really piqued my interest in this whole digital archiving/mp3/FLAC or whatever is the recent purchase of a Kenwood head unit for my truck. This little jewel has the NEATEST feature you could ever add to a car stereo. A USB port. This allowed me to purchase one of those $15 usb card readers and with the addition of a 1Gb SD card, voila, instant digital music on the car stereo. I've managed some rudimentary music files and enjoy them but do have a few issues.

Here is the skinny on the current setup. I have EAC(Exact Audio Copy) for ripping the cds. From all account this is the one to have for its accuracy. I also installed LAME mp3 encoder. As anyone who has messed with this program will tell you it is not intuitive. At least to this noob. I have it set to rip a cd to .wav and then encode with LAME to mp3 after that(rather than rip/encode at the same time after each track). It is set to delete the large .wav file after encoding to mp3. I also have it check the Cd Database for album and track info. This works but some issues need to be resolved there as well. I also downloaded Monkey's Audio for a "lossless" compression format for archiving. I have not used it yet. I also downloaded a couple of tagging programs. The Godfather and Mp3tag. This is where the real head scratching comes in. While the Monkey's Audio has a pretty intuitive interface(GUI?), the Godfather and Mp3tag confuse me completely. Especially Godfather.

Okay, down to needs. I would like to archive most of my cds. I am under the impression that storing the raw .wav files just eats up too much hard drive space. Okay fine. This is where the Monkey's Audio comes in I suppose. Allegedly it compresses the .wav files to about half their size whilst maintaining a "perfect" audio copy of your music. There is also FLAC which does the same thing but does not seem to have an easy to use front end like the Monkey's Audio. I can configure EAC to compress to M's Audio .ape files(or FLAC I believe) instead of the lossier mp3 of LAME. I don't mind mp3 for playback but it is not a great storage format. Okay, give me pros/cons of MA vs FLAC. Especially how to use the danged programs. This stuff is INTIMIDATING for new user. I would also like to know how to go about actually making a playable copy of the resultant compressed files in a format playable on my car deck. It supports mp3, WMA, and AAC. I know MA has a "convert" button to do this change but will you then lose the original archived .ape file?

Tagging. Boy here is a real nightmare. I used the Cd database function while ripping with EAC and it worked pretty well for album/track info. However, it is not quite doing some things to my liking. While I finally found out how to display this info on my car deck, when I look at the files in My Music folder, some of the tracks on one album are all listed as "track 02". Even though they don't appear that way on the player's display. They are usually in the proper order. Also, when dragging them to the SD card, the folders seem to take on any number they want. Even though I dropped five cds of mp3s on the card, they are listed as folder 03, 04, 05, 06, 08,09. See what I mean? They just seemed to assign whatever order and folder number they wanted on the card.

Alright, here is more. I am totally bamboozled by Godfather and Mp3tag. I have looked for tutorials on the web and they are woefully lacking. The one I did find for Godfather was very confusing and most of the suggestions didn't materialise in my attempts. So, do you want to use CDDB and FreeDb(free online databases for album info) as you rip or after you've ripped and compressed or encoded? How the bloody hell do you do it? I am tearing my hair out trying to make heads or tails of these tagging programs. Should you let the databases check the cd as it is in your tray or let it read .wav files after you've ripped them?

Okay final questions. FLAC or Monkey's Audio? A decent Godfather or Mp3 tagging tutorial? How to keep your compressed "lossless" music files while being able to make mp3 copies for the mobile player. I realise all this belongs on an audio forum but I don't frequent them, they are BRUTAL to newbs like me, and the post come so fast that little attention is payed to posts like this. BTW, I found out about EAC/LAME from Hydrogen Audio. The most informative site I've visited so far. Sorry for this huge post but I need help badly.

Regards, Todd

 

[TomH]

Hi Todd,

don't know if my experiences will help, but I use the simplest way to rip and archive my CD's.

For ripping in MP3's I use CDEx and for the titles and track infos during the ripping, I use CDDB.

For storing the MP3's and administrate them I use the MEDIA-MONKEY, works very well for me.
Experiments with the MS Windows Media Player and WIN-AMP, have I stopped quick...

Sorry, this is only a short achievement, but I hope it'll help you a bit.

 

[Dennis]

Okay, down to needs. I would like to archive most of my cds. I am under the impression that storing the raw .wav files just eats up too much hard drive space. Okay fine. This is where the Monkey's Audio comes in I suppose. Allegedly it compresses the .wav files to about half their size whilst maintaining a "perfect" audio copy of your music. There is also FLAC which does the same thing but does not seem to have an easy to use front end like the Monkey's Audio. I can configure EAC to compress to M's Audio .ape files(or FLAC I believe) instead of the lossier mp3 of LAME. I don't mind mp3 for playback but it is not a great storage format. Okay, give me pros/cons of MA vs FLAC. Especially how to use the danged programs. This stuff is INTIMIDATING for new user. I would also like to know how to go about actually making a playable copy of the resultant compressed files in a format playable on my car deck. It supports mp3, WMA, and AAC. I know MA has a "convert" button to do this change but will you then lose the original archived .ape file?

Hi Todd! Here is the deal... The WAV file that EAC rips from the CD is the only completely lossless file you will have (as far as I know). The problem is, as you know, the WAV file is really huge. Now the question is how close do you want the compressed version do be fidelity-wise to the original? It is a sliding scale - the more you want the bigger the file will be. There is a point where your ear cannot render the difference between a compressed file and not, and that depends on the equipment you are playing it on, you ear, and your pickiness. I am not familiar with MA at all so I will have to look into that. FLAC is open source lossless compression (similar to a ZIP file). This is really nice. The problem is that many audio devices do not support FLAC files, period. FLAC files are also quite large, but not as large as WAV files, but quite a bit bigger than MP3 (anywhere from ~3-5x bigger than an MP3 file in the files I checked). If you choose to put all of your music in FLAC format and delete the WAV (not that you could not re-rip it), the files will be larger, you will be able to put fewer of them per whatever storage media, and you will not be able to put a data disk in your car stereo to play if it does not support FLAC. You will still need an mp3, aac, or whatever. So depending on what you want, rip the WAV and just keep it and make MP3s or whatever off it, or go with FLAC and realize you might have to re-rip from EAC and make MP3s. I am unsure the quality of a FLAC to MP3 conversion. Perhaps someone else knows and can chime in.

Tagging. Boy here is a real nightmare. I used the Cd database function while ripping with EAC and it worked pretty well for album/track info. However, it is not quite doing some things to my liking. While I finally found out how to display this info on my car deck, when I look at the files in My Music folder, some of the tracks on one album are all listed as "track 02". Even though they don't appear that way on the player's display. They are usually in the proper order. Also, when dragging them to the SD card, the folders seem to take on any number they want. Even though I dropped five cds of mp3s on the card, they are listed as folder 03, 04, 05, 06, 08,09. See what I mean? They just seemed to assign whatever order and folder number they wanted on the card.

That is strange. A SD card is essentially a mini hard drive. Can you not access the card through Windows Explorer and change the folder names? The tagging info should stick. Find a file that is displaying correctly and see if it is any difference (tag-wise or folder-wise) than one that is not.

Alright, here is more. I am totally bamboozled by Godfather and Mp3tag. I have looked for tutorials on the web and they are woefully lacking. The one I did find for Godfather was very confusing and most of the suggestions didn't materialise in my attempts. So, do you want to use CDDB and FreeDb(free online databases for album info) as you rip or after you've ripped and compressed or encoded? How the bloody hell do you do it? I am tearing my hair out trying to make heads or tails of these tagging programs. Should you let the databases check the cd as it is in your tray or let it read .wav files after you've ripped them?

I have not used Godfather, but I use MP3tag extensively. There is a help file that comes with MP3tag - you can access through the start menu in the MP3tag folder. What you want tagged is the final compressed file you will play. When you stick a CD in your computer to play, the player accesses some site on the internet (FreeDB, proprietary, whatever) and pulls the data to display in your player. Nothing is being "tagged" in that way and it does not stick to the CD you put in. If your car stereo does display track info, it is pulling it directly off the data in the CD. What I do is use EAC/LAME then I tag my mp3s using MP3tag. If I am really anal, I pair this with Oscar's File Renamer so all my files are consistent. Trying to get a totally consistent digital music collection is really a PITA as you are finding out.

Okay final questions. FLAC or Monkey's Audio? A decent Godfather or Mp3 tagging tutorial? How to keep your compressed "lossless" music files while being able to make mp3 copies for the mobile player. I realise all this belongs on an audio forum but I don't frequent them, they are BRUTAL to newbs like me, and the post come so fast that little attention is payed to posts like this. BTW, I found out about EAC/LAME from Hydrogen Audio. The most informative site I've visited so far. Sorry for this huge post but I need help badly.

Hope I helped. I am not an audio expert but have been playing around with this stuff for about 12 years.

Dennis

 

[mozart]

For whatever it's worth, I am very happy with iTunes. It supports wav/aiff, aac, mp3, mp4, etc., has a nice GUI and allows for some quite sophisticated organizing that even a Classical music fan such as me can find acceptable. Of course, I use it on an Apple, but there is also a Windows version available. Check it out, you might find it fulfills your needs. Best - MM

 

[Phog Allen]

Hi Todd! Here is the deal... The WAV file that EAC rips from the CD is the only completely lossless file you will have (as far as I know). The problem is, as you know, the WAV file is really huge. Now the question is how close do you want the compressed version do be fidelity-wise to the original? It is a sliding scale - the more you want the bigger the file will be. There is a point where your ear cannot render the difference between a compressed file and not, and that depends on the equipment you are playing it on, you ear, and your pickiness. I am not familiar with MA at all so I will have to look into that. FLAC is open source lossless compression (similar to a ZIP file). This is really nice. The problem is that many audio devices do not support FLAC files, period. FLAC files are also quite large, but not as large as WAV files, but quite a bit bigger than MP3 (anywhere from ~3-5x bigger than an MP3 file in the files I checked). If you choose to put all of your music in FLAC format and delete the WAV (not that you could not re-rip it), the files will be larger, you will be able to put fewer of them per whatever storage media, and you will not be able to put a data disk in your car stereo to play if it does not support FLAC. You will still need an mp3, aac, or whatever. So depending on what you want, rip the WAV and just keep it and make MP3s or whatever off it, or go with FLAC and realize you might have to re-rip from EAC and make MP3s. I am unsure the quality of a FLAC to MP3 conversion. Perhaps someone else knows and can chime in.

Okay Dennis, that is what I was wondering. There seem to options for conversions but hey, shall we add yet another software function to the programs I already don't know how to use? I think the best way is to just re-rip and make mp3s. It is just so time consuming.

That is strange. A SD card is essentially a mini hard drive. Can you not access the card through Windows Explorer and change the folder names? The tagging info should stick. Find a file that is displaying correctly and see if it is any difference (tag-wise or folder-wise) than one that is not.

Sorry for not being clear. I have loaded the files on the SD card just fine. That is what is being displayed on the head unit from the usb port. The tags are seemingly fine, I just didn't realise that the album folders would make up their folder number. I just figured the first one you dropped on there would be one, the next two, and so on. So I can just look at them from Windows Explorer and rename the folder number or is that part of the id3 tag?

I have not used Godfather, but I use MP3tag extensively. There is a help file that comes with MP3tag - you can access through the start menu in the MP3tag folder. What you want tagged is the final compressed file you will play. When you stick a CD in your computer to play, the player accesses some site on the internet (FreeDB, proprietary, whatever) and pulls the data to display in your player. Nothing is being "tagged" in that way and it does not stick to the CD you put in. If your car stereo does display track info, it is pulling it directly off the data in the CD. What I do is use EAC/LAME then I tag my mp3s using MP3tag. If I am really anal, I pair this with Oscar's File Renamer so all my files are consistent. Trying to get a totally consistent digital music collection is really a PITA as you are finding out.

Yes, a large PITA. I did grab the tags from CDDB and they are part of the mp3 files now but as mentioned, sometimes they still look funny.

Hope I helped. I am not an audio expert but have been playing around with this stuff for about 12 years.

Appreciate any help, thank you.

For whatever it's worth, I am very happy with iTunes. It supports wav/aiff, aac, mp3, mp4, etc., has a nice GUI and allows for some quite sophisticated organizing that even a Classical music fan such as me can find acceptable. Of course, I use it on an Apple, but there is also a Windows version available. Check it out, you might find it fulfills your needs. Best - MM

Mozart I hear you. While I like the idea of ripping and archiving my files without a bunch of proprietary format files and the like, this is getting OLD. It isn't that the programs don't work. They do. I am just so green at it that I cannot manipulate them they way I want. I suppose once I understood it better I would think it much easier. I just wish that these types of programs would be a bit more intuitive. Of course they are written by audio heads and since they live and breathe this stuff they are much more familiar with it. Still, consider the EAC. Even though many people use it in conjunction with FLAC there is some sort of known issue with the .flac files. It seems that EAC doesn't like the four character file suffix and gives errors. There are ways around it from what I gather but dang it it is just one more piece of aggravation I don't want to figure out. The EAC is really a good program and it is lightweight for what it does. It rips splendidly and grabs the cd information to give to whatever encoder you choose to use. In my case LAME for mp3s. I would just like a simple way to tweak the tags without running through countless screens and menus to accomplish it.

Regards, Todd

 

[Dennis]

Yes, a large PITA. I did grab the tags from CDDB and they are part of the mp3 files now but as mentioned, sometimes they still look funny.

When MP3tag calls up the list of files that match your CD or tracks, there is a Preview button. You highlight the one in the list you want to see, hit Preview and the contents open up in a new window for you to review. Essentially FreedDB saves me a bunch of typing. Often what is uploaded there is not exactly how I want it anyway, so I just grab it and then change it right there in the tag editor.

Dennis

 

[Phog Allen]

Okay, one more shot before this is relegated to the second page. Thanks.

Regards, Todd