Apartment ammo, what are your suggestions?

[Salty O'Rourke]

Paul Harrell has several videos on shotguns for home defense; this one has a demonstration wherein he fires different shot sizes through several mockups of wallboard and stud partitions. At indoor self-defense distances I think #4, 5, or even #6 would do the job.

I don't trust HP ammo to expand consistently out of short-barreled handguns; I keep my .38spl snubbie loaded with fluted ammo, either Underwood Xtreme Defender or ARX Inceptor. The Lehigh projectile used in the Underwood ammo is designed to not overpenetrate. Plenty of videos on these types of projectiles on youtube.

My wife's nightstand gun is a .32H&R Magnum snubbie loaded with full wadcutters - they'll do a lot of damage, shouldn't overpenetrate, and target re-aquisition is quick due to the minimal recoil even at Buffalo Bore pressures.

 

[OkieStubble]

This is me after one too many Margarita's.

I can’t believe I posted this twice, without the help of a Margarita?

 

[OkieStubble]

I am not sure what rounds or bullets you were referencing other than the weight and caliber. I am no longer in the business of war or policing, so I don’t pre-sweep rooms, plan for impact zones, or game plan for firefights inside my house. Have fun and stay safe.

If you are not sure of what rounds I was referencing, then why quote my post and attempt to suggest My post is referring to rounds with steel tip penetrators?

Honest question?

The OP was simply asking for suggestions and questions on home defense ammunition sir?
The post of mine you quoted was simply explaining to him, the reasoning of why some use certain light rounds with higher velocity.

I only mentioned the .223 round that LE tactical teams use as an example? You quoted my post to make the point that steel tipped military rounds will penetrate steel?

Ok? But that wasn’t my point yet you quoted my post? I’m not looking to debate or argue if you’re not?

But if you mention my post and accidentally create a false narrative as if I gave bad or wrong advice about steel tipped ammo that will severely over penetrate?

Are you offended sir, by polite and gentlemanly correction? Now saying, you didn’t know what round I was referring too, isn’t quite fair to me is it? they call that “moving the goalposts?”

Don’t make it nothing, and it won’t be nothing?

Stay safe.

 

[Champion of Capua]

I can’t believe I posted this twice, without the help of a Margarita?

I swear occifer, I hadn’t even a single margarita

 

[Champion of Capua]

Paul Harrell has several videos on shotguns for home defense; this one has a demonstration wherein he fires different shot sizes through several mockups of wallboard and stud partitions. At indoor self-defense distances I think #4, 5, or even #6 would do the job.

I don't trust HP ammo to expand consistently out of short-barreled handguns; I keep my .38spl snubbie loaded with fluted ammo, either Underwood Xtreme Defender or ARX Inceptor. The Lehigh projectile used in the Underwood ammo is designed to not overpenetrate. Plenty of videos on these types of projectiles on youtube.

My wife's nightstand gun is a .32H&R Magnum snubbie loaded with full wadcutters - they'll do a lot of damage, shouldn't overpenetrate, and target re-aquisition is quick due to the minimal recoil even at Buffalo Bore pressures.

That buck shot #4 is sounding pretty attractive right now

 

[oc_in_fw]

I can’t believe I posted this twice, without the help of a Margarita?

 

[OkieStubble]

That buck shot #4 is sounding pretty attractive right now

There's an old thread about it and home defense where people are concerned about over penetration. The consensus from most others in that thread suggested the #4 buck also. But that thread was about a 20 gauge I think.

 

[OkieStubble]

Lol'd.

"dancing queen, feel the beat of my tamborine!" -ABBA

 

[oc_in_fw]

Lol'd.

"dancing queen, feel the beat of my tamborine!" -ABBA

My sister (the cop) loved that show.

 

[OkieStubble]

My sister (the cop) loved that show.

It's a 'cop thang...'

 

[Possum092]

If you are not sure of what rounds I was referencing, then why quote my post and attempt to suggest My post is referring to rounds with steel tip penetrators?

Honest question?

The OP was simply asking for suggestions and questions on home defense ammunition sir?
The post of mine you quoted was simply explaining to him, the reasoning of why some use certain light rounds with higher velocity.

I only mentioned the .223 round that LE tactical teams use as an example? You quoted my post to make the point that steel tipped military rounds will penetrate steel?

Ok? But that wasn’t my point yet you quoted my post? I’m not looking to debate or argue if you’re not?

But if you mention my post and accidentally create a false narrative as if I gave bad or wrong advice about steel tipped ammo that will severely over penetrate?

Are you offended sir, by polite and gentlemanly correction? Now saying, you didn’t know what round I was referring too, isn’t quite fair to me is it? they call that “moving the goalposts?”

Don’t make it nothing, and it won’t be nothing?

Stay safe.

Debate is healthy and encouraged. I am the last person to take offense or stake my ego on a public shaving forum response of all things.

 

[Lightcs1776]

410 Shotgun for Home Defense? - AllOutdoor.com

Paul Harrell has taken a look at a pile of popguns in his videos, and in this one he deals with using a 410 shotgun for home defense.

www.alloutdoor.com

Huh, so the .410 does not refer to the guage. I am probably the only one who never knew this, though I don't own one so I guess it is OK. I have shot a friends a few times and they are a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[OkieStubble]

Debate is healthy and encouraged. I am the last person to take offense or stake my ego on a public shaving forum response of all things.

I am of the opinion that you are correct that debate is good and healthy and we can all learn something in those debates. However, most experienced people who enjoy a good, healthy, constructive debate, especially online? Do not quote people, and make it appear, that someone is giving bad advice on steel tipped penetrating rounds, when they did no such thing?

Just sayin.

If this was a debate thread, knock yourself out. But this was a advice thread and I gave good advice. If you disagree with that advice, then say so, but don't quote my advice then mention steel tipped penetrators out of the thin blue sky and hint the suggestion that my post is wrong and i am misinforming and indangering people? Does this make sense to you?

It's ok, to inject good information about "not using" steel tipped penetrators, but give this great information in your post on your own personal merits, without quoting anyone else and attempting to tag "your own thoughts' to anything they said or didn't say?

This would be the gentlemanly, respectful and considerate thing to do. Especially over the internet? Agreed?

You weren't debating me, you quoted me and then said something completely different on your own. It was wrong to quote me. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Hair Scraper]

If you're looking for something that may not penetrate walls there's a Hornady video out there on UBoob where Dave Emary of Hornady, (since retired,) explains how he designed Critical Defense pistol ammo. In the video he states that Critical Defense wasn't designed to meet the FBI standard for penetrating barriers, ie walls. On the other hand Critical Duty ammo was. Critical Duty ammo uses rifle ammo jackets to hold together through barriers.

Due to my living conditions with neighbors on 4 sides I have Critical Defense on hand as the welcoming committee.

 

[dojpros]

Edited to add: multiple recs for frangible. PROBLEM- OP says in his first posting " ...and frangible ammo is prohibited."
Therefore frangible is NOT a viable solution.

Late to the party.

My standard rec for buckshot is Federal Flight Control 8 pellet, followed by 9 pellet because of how well it patterns out to 20 yrds (10 inch max) in every gun I have ever seen it shot in to include a whole fleet of 590s.

It is expensive and sometimes difficult to get. In that vein, I would also consider a reduced recoil buckshot offering from a reputable maker and I would pattern it at a bit longer than the longest shot I would have to make in the "house" if it stays on the paper, you are good to go.

While I think that a blast even bird/rabbit shot 12 g shotgun inside a home would be unpleasant to the receiver, if you factor in a determined advisory wearing multiple layers and possible drug and/or alcohol use in the moment, I would humble suggest you want a bit more of a margin of error that a buckshot load would provide. I am told by those in the know that 8 30+ caliber pellets delivered center mass tends to change the fight dynamic permanently. When such a payload is delivered to an extremity, rapid and semi permanent bone/flesh/blood loss usually follows.

Re the .357. I too think that reliable expansion out of a short barrelled revolver is still more art than science. Speer and Hornady both have .38 special offerings that are optimized for this application. Having said that, I am a big 148g target wadcutter fan in shot barrelled revolvers. The projectile has a lot of frontal section and recoil/blast is quite mild. Such a load would be exceptionally mild in the revolver you pictured. Hornady has a reduced recoil hollow point load as well. IIRC, and advantage of such a load may be flash retardant in the powder. Absent having more knowledge of your place and building materials, I would shy away from a full powered .357 magnum load. YMMV.

Re the .45 ACP-I am a big fan of std pressure 230g hollowpoint offerings that have as FMJ profile as possible. Remington Golden Saber is the round I have seen shot the most with the greatest success. While 165 and 185 g offerings are certainly effective, 230g continues to be the standard by the majority of an ever decreasing user pool of that caliber.

Regardless of what you buy, particularly in the shotgun, make sure it works and you know where it hits based on the longest distance of a shot you would take. i.e. inside my place- 7rds down a hallway etc. The comments re lighting, fields of fire, backstop(s), your potential shooting position(s) relative to an advancing adversary are all excellent food for thought.

 

[OkieStubble]

Edited to add: multiple recs for frangible. PROBLEM- OP says in his first posting " ...and frangible ammo is prohibited."
Therefore frangible is NOT a viable solution.

Late to the party.

My standard rec for buckshot is Federal Flight Control 8 pellet, followed by 9 pellet because of how well it patterns out to 20 yrds (10 inch max) in every gun I have ever seen it shot in to include a whole fleet of 590s.

It is expensive and sometimes difficult to get. In that vein, I would also consider a reduced recoil buckshot offering from a reputable maker and I would pattern it at a bit longer than the longest shot I would have to make in the "house" if it stays on the paper, you are good to go.

While I think that a blast even bird/rabbit shot 12 g shotgun inside a home would be unpleasant to the receiver, if you factor in a determined advisory wearing multiple layers and possible drug and/or alcohol use in the moment, I would humble suggest you want a bit more of a margin of error that a buckshot load would provide. I am told by those in the know that 8 30+ caliber pellets delivered center mass tends to change the fight dynamic permanently. When such a payload is delivered to an extremity, rapid and semi permanent bone/flesh/blood loss usually follows.

Re the .357. I too think that reliable expansion out of a short barrelled revolver is still more art than science. Speer and Hornady both have .38 special offerings that are optimized for this application. Having said that, I am a big 148g target wadcutter fan in shot barrelled revolvers. The projectile has a lot of frontal section and recoil/blast is quite mild. Such a load would be exceptionally mild in the revolver you pictured. Hornady has a reduced recoil hollow point load as well. IIRC, and advantage of such a load may be flash retardant in the powder. Absent having more knowledge of your place and building materials, I would shy away from a full powered .357 magnum load. YMMV.

Re the .45 ACP-I am a big fan of std pressure 230g hollowpoint offerings that have as FMJ profile as possible. Remington Golden Saber is the round I have seen shot the most with the greatest success. While 165 and 185 g offerings are certainly effective, 230g continues to be the standard by the majority of an ever decreasing user pool of that caliber.

Regardless of what you buy, particularly in the shotgun, make sure it works and you know where it hits based on the longest distance of a shot you would take. i.e. inside my place- 7rds down a hallway etc. The comments re lighting, fields of fire, backstop(s), your potential shooting position(s) relative to an advancing adversary are all excellent food for thought.

Good post David. I can keep Federal 9 shot darn near in a paper pie plate at 25 yards and concur it is what I personally stuff into my Remington 870 Police.

While we all have our personal preferences for what and why we use what we use personally and most are all good and adequate preferences as we all are gun guys who research and consider what we say, suggest and use for our own domiciles.

All ammunition; even ammunition that is specifically marketed as low recoil, or less penetrating or even frangible, can still penetrate walls and sheet rock because it isn’t an exact science. So while ammo research is important to keep over penetration to a minimum, pre/mapping lanes of fire and figuring out how and where you can defend yourself without causing collateral damage to other innocents in and around your residence, is most important and it’s something we all should know, train and have ingrained it down into our bones, before and ahead of an actual home defense situation.

If kids can do fire and tornado drills and evacuate schools or tuck their heads between their knees and cover with their hands a couple of times a year, it shouldn’t be too much trouble for adults who want to be prepared for a home defense encounter, to go over their ‘what if’ plan a couple of times a year.

A good time to remember something like this, could be as easily remembered and done like when it’s time to change the 9 volt batteries in your smoke detectors. You’ll get fresh batteries and a fresh perspective on your home invasion plan all at the same time.

 

[Salty O'Rourke]

Lucky Gunner has an extensive series of defensive ammo testing results using handguns with 2" and 4" barrels. Really good info in an easy-to-use format.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

Hornady Critical Defense performed very well in these tests from 2" test guns; most of the other HP rounds were inconsistent in expansion, in 38spl.

 

[malocchio]

Huh, so the .410 does not refer to the guage. I am probably the only one who never knew this, though I don't own one so I guess it is OK. I have shot a friends a few times and they are a lot of fun to shoot.

The British use " bore " for everything we call " gauge " ....I've always called the .410 " gauge" ...now we know!

 

[OkieStubble]

Huh, so the .410 does not refer to the guage. I am probably the only one who never knew this, though I don't own one so I guess it is OK. I have shot a friends a few times and they are a lot of fun to shoot.

I know you didn’t mean this the way I’m reading it, but if one misses the small “a” it almost looks like, you said, you have shot a few friends and they are a lot of fun too shoot.

I consider you a friend and started to be thankful you live all the way up in New York before I noticed that letter a.

 

[Lightcs1776]

I know you didn’t mean this the way I’m reading it, but if one misses the small “a” it almost looks like, you said, you have shot a few friends and they are a lot of fun too shoot.

I consider you a friend and started to be thankful you live all the way up in New York before I noticed that letter a.

Good catch. Yes, I have shot my friend's 410 a few times, but only at squirrels.