Am I missing anything? (JNAT thread)

[LBussy]

With the red stamp in top right only the left two stamps are what we care about... The two stamps on the right are origin stamps and don't really add anything to the use of the stones

Well here's what I've figured out. The "asano" stamp:

Actually says "Asano" which is a surname. That's the lower two figures, not sure what the top one is.

The other stamp:


... is maybe the other physical qualities? Because one of the characters is the character for "white": 白

 

[LBussy]

Wait ... 目白 is "mejiro". The 目 is eye, 白 is white, mejiro is a Japanese bird called "white eye" and is also apparently a town?

 

[SliceOfLife]

I believe it's ケン, or 検; which means inspected. So basically, Asano-inspected?

 

[Gamma]

ボタン　Botan (Peony)
八重ボタン Yae-Botan
天上　Tenjou (Heaven/Sky)
目白　Mejiro (White-Eye)
コマ　Koma　(fine)
アツ Atsu
バン Ban

 

[LBussy]

I believe it's ケン, or 検; which means inspected. So basically, Asano-inspected?

Thank you, that helps. It's hell to search Google for Kanji and figure it out.

That's from the wholesaler? Maksim's site says "All sales in Japan are now done by a few wholesalers: Tanaka, Imanishi, HaTanaka, Asano and ,a few others."

ボタン　Botan (Peony)
八重ボタン Yae-Botan
天上　Tenjou (Heaven/Sky)
目白　Mejiro (White-Eye)
コマ　Koma　(fine)
アツ Atsu
バン Ban

Thank you ... the Peony one I actually knew but sort of glazed over it because, well, Japanese is all about context and I didn't recognize it. It's a common marking on the fireworks I work with.

In that pic ボタン means "Botan" (、ボタン、 on Maksim's page, not sure what the leading and trailing 、 characters are) and for a Nagura that's the "grit" (I know that's not the right term but the best description I have at the moment).

Okay and the last stamp ... would that be roughly a mine/area and product name? Shiro 白 means white, Nagura 名倉 is a rock formation so does shiro nagura simply mean "white rock in this formation" and in traditional Japanese manner together it means that "white rock in this formation that we use as a slurry stone?" Mikawa 三河 is a prefecture? Jun 純 means "genuine" or "pure" so that whole stamp 純三河白名倉 means "Pure Mikawa White Nagura" (or "genuine slurry stone from Mikawa")?

Holy crap it's no wonder people stay so confused. And all that's just for a slurry stone.

I just noticed after putting all that together the button still said "Post Quick Reply".

 

[Lakebound]

What brooksie (Jeremy) told me when I started:

Jnat process

After setting your bevel it's time to go to botan on your ozuku. I typically run the stone under water and wipe it off with my hand so there is still some water on the surface but not so much that your slurry is going to be a sloppy mess. Now, you're going to have to play around with how much slurry you are using but you want it looking pretty milky.

With that slurry you want to work it until it not only visibly breaks down but you'll be able to feel the grit getting finer and finer. You also want to pay attention to the colour of the slurry. I don't know if you hone with or without tape but i find the slurry breaks down better when you don't use tape. The slurry will start to tint grey. At this point you have some learning to do. If you don't have a loupe, it helps to get one so you can start associating feedback and slurry properties with the state of your bevel. You should be working your botan slurry until you can't see 1k scratches anymore.

If you can still see 1k scratches you can make another botan slurry and work it all over again. I don't really dilute botan much if at all, maybe a tiny bit if it starts to dry out. It should never feel dry or pasty, but needs to be wet.

A good trick to use when starting out with the slurry is make the slurry and let it settle. Look at the little particles in the matrix. Once the colour change and feel change have occurded you can, for learning purposes, add a tiny bit of water and watch the slurry particles settle; they should be significantly different.

Typically one botan is enough, 2 is the most i've ever had to use.

After botan you're going to notice a nice haze developing on your edge. Repeat the above steps for the Tenjyou. Watch for all the signs of slurry breaking down. What you're looking for here is a refinement in the haze. Botan is going to leave a very misty looking finish. Tenjyous finish will still be misty but a little more mirrored and refined. Since you don't have a Mejiro, you may want to do 2 tenjyou slurries as well but that's for you to decide when you play around with it.

I have two questions if you please: #1 You mentioned "After setting your bevel it's time to go to botan on your ozuku." Does this mean that some or all set their bevel on something like a synthetic 1K or coarser? #2: The following advice was offered: "Since you don't have a Mejiro, you may want to do 2 tenjyou slurries as well but that's for you to decide when you play around with it." I don't have a tenjyou but I do have a Mejiro so, could I apply that same suggestion for my progression or, is botan to mejiro too big of a jump?

Thanks,

Frank

 

[Brooksie967]

I have two questions if you please: #1 You mentioned "After setting your bevel it's time to go to botan on your ozuku." Does this mean that some or all set their bevel on something like a synthetic 1K or coarser? #2: The following advice was offered: "Since you don't have a Mejiro, you may want to do 2 tenjyou slurries as well but that's for you to decide when you play around with it." I don't have a tenjyou but I do have a Mejiro so, could I apply that same suggestion for my progression or, is botan to mejiro too big of a jump?

Thanks,

Frank

#1: Setting a bevel really depends on how damanged the razor is. Some razors don't need to go to the 1k mark to bevel set, some need work on a 325 DMT. That's really up for you to determine; there are lots and lots of great bevel setting threads out there but if you have trouble finding them, just ask At any rate, if you are just refreshing your razor and you are someone that 'glasses' their edge, resetting the bevel using your botan shouldn't be an issue at all.

#2: Botan to mejiro CAN be too big of a jump but it depends on how fast and how fine each of your naguras is. Some mejiro are quite capable of enhancing a razor that just went through the botan stage. You can skip it sure, will it work, yeah, but I like having a setup that includes the tenjyou stage. You may want to try two stages of mejiro, inspect after the first breakdown, take note of the appearance and then do another one to see if it makes any visual differences.

I would suggest shaving after each stage as well; this really gives perspective of what each stage brings to the game. SO, set your bevel (however you choose to do it) and work a botan slurry to the max: shave.

Go back to bevel set, do botan and mejiro: shave.

Go back, botan, mejiro x2: shave

And so on. You might end up preferring the shave finishing on mejiro as compared to furthering the progression. This will just help dial in your preferences.

In the end, experiment, have fun and ask questions

 

[Lakebound]

#1: Setting a bevel really depends on how damanged the razor is. Some razors don't need to go to the 1k mark to bevel set, some need work on a 325 DMT. That's really up for you to determine; there are lots and lots of great bevel setting threads out there but if you have trouble finding them, just ask At any rate, if you are just refreshing your razor and you are someone that 'glasses' their edge, resetting the bevel using your botan shouldn't be an issue at all.

#2: Botan to mejiro CAN be too big of a jump but it depends on how fast and how fine each of your naguras is. Some mejiro are quite capable of enhancing a razor that just went through the botan stage. You can skip it sure, will it work, yeah, but I like having a setup that includes the tenjyou stage. You may want to try two stages of mejiro, inspect after the first breakdown, take note of the appearance and then do another one to see if it makes any visual differences.

I would suggest shaving after each stage as well; this really gives perspective of what each stage brings to the game. SO, set your bevel (however you choose to do it) and work a botan slurry to the max: shave.

Go back to bevel set, do botan and mejiro: shave.

Go back, botan, mejiro x2: shave

And so on. You might end up preferring the shave finishing on mejiro as compared to furthering the progression. This will just help dial in your preferences.

In the end, experiment, have fun and ask questions

Thank you Brooksie. Up until just recently, I was setting bevels and progressing with all synthetic stones and finishing on JNATS. But David has been very kind and generous with me and sent to me, botan and mejiro Nagura and a nice piece of tomo. And, my wife picked up a vintage straight for me this past week that I can use to practice with an all JNAT progression on.

I definitely have a nice bevel set on it already from the Naniwa 1k but needed some direction on how to proceed. Here is what I am thinking: botan, mejiro x2, koma then on to tomo finishes. Shaving in between as you suggested. Are there any tweaks or a problem there that you can see? Any further advice to offer please?

Thanks,

Frank

A

 

[Brooksie967]

Thank you Brooksie. Up until just recently, I was setting bevels and progressing with all synthetic stones and finishing on JNATS. But David has been very kind and generous with me and sent to me, botan and mejiro Nagura and a nice piece of tomo. And, my wife picked up a vintage straight for me this past week that I can use to practice with an all JNAT progression on.

I definitely have a nice bevel set on it already from the Naniwa 1k but needed some direction on how to proceed. Here is what I am thinking: botan, mejiro x2, koma then on to tomo finishes. Shaving in between as you suggested. Are there any tweaks or a problem there that you can see? Any further advice to offer please?

Thanks,

Frank

A

Frank, you're all set up man!

One other issue that people seem to have is either using not enough or WAY too much slurry raised from the naguras. I like it to be pretty creamy looking and have enough that when i'm doing my x stroke about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of slurry is on the stone infront of the blade.

 

[CartridgesAreADrag]

This has turned into a fairly interesting thread. I've learned more Japanese and some great suggestions about learning the qualities of each of the stones.

One question, how does the suita look? It was described as being a Shinden Yama Suita, which yama means mountain (I think), but is that also a description of the patterning of the suita (holes?)? Is there a better word to describe the pattern?

I know that every stone is different, but is there a general quality associated with a suita honed razor? Is there a good reason to get any more JNATs, or should I focus on getting tomo to introduce the qualities of other JNATs into the honing progression?

 

[SliceOfLife]

They look like someone mixed the stone with carbonated water instead of still water, at least all mine did.

 

[Lakebound]

Frank, you're all set up man!

One other issue that people seem to have is either using not enough or WAY too much slurry raised from the naguras. I like it to be pretty creamy looking and have enough that when i'm doing my x stroke about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of slurry is on the stone infront of the blade.

Thank you Brooksie, I will proceed as you have directed and have some fun along the way.

Frank

 

[Brooksie967]

This has turned into a fairly interesting thread. I've learned more Japanese and some great suggestions about learning the qualities of each of the stones.

One question, how does the suita look? It was described as being a Shinden Yama Suita, which yama means mountain (I think), but is that also a description of the patterning of the suita (holes?)? Is there a better word to describe the pattern?

I know that every stone is different, but is there a general quality associated with a suita honed razor? Is there a good reason to get any more JNATs, or should I focus on getting tomo to introduce the qualities of other JNATs into the honing progression?

Those holes are called "Su". Suita witout holes is a Sunashi Suita.

Are there more reasons to get more jnats..... yes

Can a tomo of different quality impart different characteristics on the edge? Sharpness? Smoothness? I believe so but not as drastically as varying the base stone.

 

[buca3152]

Great shares guys! Clear and concise. I think the system works very well. Some terminology that you can pick up very quickly. More importantly is the useage which is described very well here. Hone and shave is the only way to get where your going. SLight variations will get you the edge you want.

 

[Gamma]

The 'names' of the Nagura indicate the strata they were taken from. Botan is a layer.
Mikawa Shiro - this indicates the location of the mine, there are Nagura taken from other locations - Chu for example.
Mikawa Nagura are graded and authenticated, where the others are not. Iwasaki felt this ensured consistecy.



Characteristics of a Suita generated edge? Ask 1200 people that question and you'll get 1500 answers. IMO - it depends on the stone in question, who is honing, what they're used to and expect from an edge - and so on. In my own hands I can get higher levels of overall cutting efficacy when honing on stones from other strata. But this is not always the only goal I'm looking for.

 

[CartridgesAreADrag]

Last night I honed an Army Special 6/8 with a double botan slurry. I must admit that JNATs have a difference feedback and draw compared to the coti/Thuri I have previously used. The size of this host suita is really nice and I like the curvature of it. After 50/100 strops of linen and leather it was passing hht. The shave was pleasent but not quite as sharp as I usually like my blades. Should be interested to try the next stone in the progression tomorrow.

 

[Lakebound]

Last night I honed an Army Special 6/8 with a double botan slurry. I must admit that JNATs have a difference feedback and draw compared to the coti/Thuri I have previously used. The size of this host suita is really nice and I like the curvature of it. After 50/100 strops of linen and leather it was passing hht. The shave was pleasent but not quite as sharp as I usually like my blades. Should be interested to try the next stone in the progression tomorrow.

So you have an edge passing HHT after Botan slurries? Not that I doubt it, but what level of HHT? I ask because I myself cannot get any edge to perform the HHT with my hair samples and I find it frustrating.

Frank

 

[buca3152]

The hair sample may not be doable. I used to think that was nonsense, until my 16 y/o daughter started color treating her hair and the wife does also. Its a completely different sample. It passes and cuts still but not as before. Ive heard some use an old badger brush. I wish I had better advice. LOL

 

[Lakebound]

I may give that a try (the brush).

Frank

 

[LBussy]

I may give that a try (the brush).

Frank

Maybe that's a good use for my Turkish Horse.