-Any recommendations for 10-12k rock?
A Slurry (nagura?) Stone for a metamorphotic hone?
- Thread starter Mitzie
- Start date
Assuming you are doing so for grins, there are easier and more consistent methods of finishing razors.
I would start with Diamond slurry, 4-600 grit and see how aggressive and friable the slurry and stone are when worked.
A Tsushima, Botan or Coticule would be my next experiment, but you would likely be honing on nagura slurry and not much base stone.
Old stand by’s like Chromium, Ferrous, and Cerium Oxides will bump up most natural stone,(doubt many are 10-12k equivalent. The Oxides will put you in the 20k range. My experience is Nagura do not have the same synergistic effect that a Jnat and Jnat nagura have on non Jnat stones.
There is not much that can “improve” a Jnat or well prepped Ark edge. So, if you are looking for a Jnat or Ark edge…
Even stropping a Jnat/Ark edge on Chromium, Diamond or CBN can change the edge, but questionable/personal if it is “improved”.
I would start with Diamond slurry, 4-600 grit and see how aggressive and friable the slurry and stone are when worked.
A Tsushima, Botan or Coticule would be my next experiment, but you would likely be honing on nagura slurry and not much base stone.
Old stand by’s like Chromium, Ferrous, and Cerium Oxides will bump up most natural stone,(doubt many are 10-12k equivalent. The Oxides will put you in the 20k range. My experience is Nagura do not have the same synergistic effect that a Jnat and Jnat nagura have on non Jnat stones.
There is not much that can “improve” a Jnat or well prepped Ark edge. So, if you are looking for a Jnat or Ark edge…
Even stropping a Jnat/Ark edge on Chromium, Diamond or CBN can change the edge, but questionable/personal if it is “improved”.
In essence any type of nagura or slurry stone will work on any type of base stone. And with the exception of jnats - the large majority of razor finishing hones are metamorphic to some degree anyway.
Though you may feel that certain combinations don't seem to gel as well for you, while others work amazingly. You're throwing a lot of variables into the mix doing stuff like this though, so it's not really very possible to untangle exactly why one thing's great and another not so good. It's kinda just a matter of playing around and seeing what you like. Which isn't a very helpful answer I know, so here are some other thoughts...
Japanese nagura really are very good, and for me they work well with pretty much anything. I certainly wouldn't ignore a nagura / non-Japanaese base stone combination as a possibility.
Tam slurry is another winner, that seems to do well on a lot of things.
Coticules are very good for speed and earlier work.
Atoma raised slurry from the stone itself I do often. Which is probably the most predictable in terms of outcomes.
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Last thing to say would be to emphasise a point the HBB made above: When you use different slurry stones or nagura, the honing character initially comes overwhelmingly from the slurry stone. Dilutions and patience are very important.
Though you may feel that certain combinations don't seem to gel as well for you, while others work amazingly. You're throwing a lot of variables into the mix doing stuff like this though, so it's not really very possible to untangle exactly why one thing's great and another not so good. It's kinda just a matter of playing around and seeing what you like. Which isn't a very helpful answer I know, so here are some other thoughts...
Japanese nagura really are very good, and for me they work well with pretty much anything. I certainly wouldn't ignore a nagura / non-Japanaese base stone combination as a possibility.
Tam slurry is another winner, that seems to do well on a lot of things.
Coticules are very good for speed and earlier work.
Atoma raised slurry from the stone itself I do often. Which is probably the most predictable in terms of outcomes.
---
Last thing to say would be to emphasise a point the HBB made above: When you use different slurry stones or nagura, the honing character initially comes overwhelmingly from the slurry stone. Dilutions and patience are very important.
What stone, and what are you trying to achieve?
Using slurry isn't always a required thing, or even always helpful.
There are many stones that I won't use slurry on when honing razors.
Using slurry isn't always a required thing, or even always helpful.
There are many stones that I won't use slurry on when honing razors.
- Thread starter
- #5
I'm trying to compare the effectiveness of my stone, with, and without the use of slurry.
Then start with it just water, then try its own slurry raised with a diamond plate. Don’t bother confusing the issue with other stones until you have that benchmark
But we still don’t know what your stone is. Which limits our advise somewhat.
- Thread starter
- #7
A Cnat. -Yes, I can get a shaveable edge with a diamond plate 600#, but still it's not sharp or close enough for my 'copper wire' whiskers
It’s tricky, because China is a huge place, and so the variety of natural stones is going to be equally huge. I’m sure there are some that are top notch, but some are just going to be rubbish, cut into blocks.
If you are spending a fortune to put expensive nagura on a shingle, did you really save money?
Knowing no more than I do, if you are getting bad results from just water on the stone, nagura is unlikely to help much. The problem is either the stone, or the thing between the stone and the floor.
Cnat’s are more akin to Hard Arks, where stone face finish matters more than adding slurry. Once flat, (60 grit loose silicon carbide), experiment with different grit finishes, starting with 600 and work your way up to 2k with Wet and Dry, and try burnishing the stone with flat carbon steel.
The big problem with them is wide range of the quality of the stone on the market today. Back in the day, when they first came on the market the stones varied greatly in performance from one distributor. I tried several and own a few.
Today from multiple distributors, the variance is even greater, so the stone may not perform better than a 6k’ish stone.
I don’t think that slurry is the answer for squeaking performance from a Cnat.
Be aware that a Cnat will trash a diamond plate quickly.
The big problem with them is wide range of the quality of the stone on the market today. Back in the day, when they first came on the market the stones varied greatly in performance from one distributor. I tried several and own a few.
Today from multiple distributors, the variance is even greater, so the stone may not perform better than a 6k’ish stone.
I don’t think that slurry is the answer for squeaking performance from a Cnat.
Be aware that a Cnat will trash a diamond plate quickly.
Are you speaking of every whetstone quarried in the entire country of China, or one type specifically? There are over half a dozen different natural stones on Aliexpress alone.
- Thread starter
- #13
The Cnat I have is a Adaee with which some Forum members have had success in honing. Even some SR supplies outlets offer this stone for budget conscious honers
That is a stone, that I would be suspect.
Test your stone, if the stone is a low grit or with toxic grit, adding more grit may not improve the base stone much or at all.
Hone the razor with a known grit stone 6 or 8k, mark a line halfway between the heel and toe from spine to edge. Re hone the razor keeping the edge of the Adaee at the sharpie mark, so you hone only the toe half of the razor.
Now you can visually compare both stones, by looking at the bevel stria and edge. You can also test shave and compare both edges.
If the Adaee is not an improvement over a 6 or 8k, stick with synthetics.
Test your stone, if the stone is a low grit or with toxic grit, adding more grit may not improve the base stone much or at all.
Hone the razor with a known grit stone 6 or 8k, mark a line halfway between the heel and toe from spine to edge. Re hone the razor keeping the edge of the Adaee at the sharpie mark, so you hone only the toe half of the razor.
Now you can visually compare both stones, by looking at the bevel stria and edge. You can also test shave and compare both edges.
If the Adaee is not an improvement over a 6 or 8k, stick with synthetics.
- Thread starter
- #16
Thanks for your suggestion. Since your post I bought an ultra fine (gray/blue) jewellers polising stick (4" x 5/16" square) off ebay.... generated a slurry on the Cnat Adaee stone (finishing on CrO, 0.25 and 0.1 diamond pasted balsa with 12 laps on leather hanging strop) and obtained the best 'edge' I've ever had! I particularly like the smooth experience of the blade against the skin giving me 99% BBS shave this morning. Until your post I never knew anything about TAMs. Thanks again !
^^ is that what you're using in place of a slurry stone on the Adaee 12k?
- Thread starter
- #18
Yeep! -A poor mans 'nagura' type slurry stone.... for me it improved my 'edges' with the Adaee 12k I understand the Water of Ayr and/or Tam O' Shanter stones are equivalent to 5-8k
I’d advise against paying any attention to people putting “equivalent” grit ratings on natural stones. It’s a lot more complicated than that.
I try all kinds of stuff and never post about it, so I have used tons of abrasives to make slurry. Some works.
If it works for you, it works.
The grit or grit size does not always matter. Folks say Ark grit is in the hundreds, 3-400 grit size, but the binder holds the grit, and we hone on just the tops. Grind the stone and hone on the loose grit and the performance changes dramatically.
As said natural stones cannot be grit rated, you can grit compare your stone to a known synthetic grit stria for a ballpark “rating” of your stone. But that rates your stone, not any other.
Look at natural friable stones like Jnats or slates for slurry making, I have had good result on hard naturals and synthetic stones with Tushima and tomo nagura stones.
Tushima slurry on a 10k Suehiro will make it cut faster, polish to a mirror finish and will make a nice shaving edge, not as keen as a Jnat edge but very comfortable and shaveable.
Also, Diamond slurry on Arks and hard stones, works on Cnats, but I have always found that stone lacking and performance, very stone dependent. Diamond & CBN paste & sprays works as does some metal polish and traditional paste, cerium, chrome & ferrous oxide on some stones.
Slurry is a synergistic effect of the base stone grit and the grit added and the new grit concoction that is created, there are no rules. Most polishing compounds are Aluminum Oxide of unknow size.
I recently bought a blue Japanese polishing compound used to polish high end hair cutting shears. It does polish to a high level, haven’t yet tried honing on it…
If it works for you, it works.
The grit or grit size does not always matter. Folks say Ark grit is in the hundreds, 3-400 grit size, but the binder holds the grit, and we hone on just the tops. Grind the stone and hone on the loose grit and the performance changes dramatically.
As said natural stones cannot be grit rated, you can grit compare your stone to a known synthetic grit stria for a ballpark “rating” of your stone. But that rates your stone, not any other.
Look at natural friable stones like Jnats or slates for slurry making, I have had good result on hard naturals and synthetic stones with Tushima and tomo nagura stones.
Tushima slurry on a 10k Suehiro will make it cut faster, polish to a mirror finish and will make a nice shaving edge, not as keen as a Jnat edge but very comfortable and shaveable.
Also, Diamond slurry on Arks and hard stones, works on Cnats, but I have always found that stone lacking and performance, very stone dependent. Diamond & CBN paste & sprays works as does some metal polish and traditional paste, cerium, chrome & ferrous oxide on some stones.
Slurry is a synergistic effect of the base stone grit and the grit added and the new grit concoction that is created, there are no rules. Most polishing compounds are Aluminum Oxide of unknow size.
I recently bought a blue Japanese polishing compound used to polish high end hair cutting shears. It does polish to a high level, haven’t yet tried honing on it…
