Never point out another person's lack of manners.
Unless said person is your child, under 18, and done quietly.
Unless said person is your child, under 18, and done quietly.
Gentleman's Essentials: Table Manners
- Thread starter burningdarkness
- Start date
So help me out here: why can you one moment say this with regards to passing to the right (which I completely agree with)
But then...
Isn't that also a pointless rule that has no basis in utility? I certainly understand that it is custom and might be good for appearances, but one might argue that passing to the right is also custom and at least has the utilitarian benefit of all dishes getting passed the same direction.
I'm not sure I can reconcile these two points.
But then...
Isn't that also a pointless rule that has no basis in utility? I certainly understand that it is custom and might be good for appearances, but one might argue that passing to the right is also custom and at least has the utilitarian benefit of all dishes getting passed the same direction.
I'm not sure I can reconcile these two points.
Ok, someone please explain this to me. I am righthanded. I find it easier to cut a steak with a knife in my left hand and the fork in the right. It is more efficient - I think Frederick Winslow Taylor would have approved. Why must I cut with my right hand, place the knife down, switch hands or be forced to use a fork in my left? What kind of sadist made up these table manners?!
Why do I have to hold the fork in my left hand always?
I had to restrain myself from jumping over the table and forking his hands. That wouldn't have been polite of me.
...(with the French thinking we are barbarians, and we thinking the French are nancies). Figuratively speaking, middle-of-the-bell-curve, generalising stuff.
You wanted to hand fork him?! If you had missed was there a chance you would have ended up forking yourself? Maybe it is best if we just avoid talk of forking in public?
They looked at me strangely in New England when I asked what the utensils were for in eating pizza.
No, it's not. You MUST fold it lengthwise. I think it's a law.
why, surely you mean "Do not masticate with an agape oral cavity"?
and I never heard of the "don't salt/pepper the food until trying it" thing until last year, someone was telling me about a local company that when doing interviews over meals, they watch this, and if you salt/pepper before trying the food, interview is over, they leave immediately...some crap about saying you have pre-judgemental or something...kinda ironic, if you've been to the place before and know you need it, but alas....
Admiral Hyman Rickover, known as the father of the nuclear submarine. I had heard and perhaps a
Probably true given Rickover's temperament. Even more - you don't do something without investigating first, or because you expected it to be a certain way.
Remember there are two kinds of ships, Submarines and Targets.
This is a great thread! 
I was raised with family dinners and table manners, and habitually keep to the little niceties, like breaking off chunks of bread and buttering them individually, and keeping my fork in my left hand when cutting and eating steak, instead of the dreadful American "switcheroo" . . . but I refuse to hold my fork upside down.
That's just SILLY. Why fight gravity and physics at the table by trying to balance things on a convex surface?
NANP
I was raised with family dinners and table manners, and habitually keep to the little niceties, like breaking off chunks of bread and buttering them individually, and keeping my fork in my left hand when cutting and eating steak, instead of the dreadful American "switcheroo" . . . but I refuse to hold my fork upside down.
That's just SILLY. Why fight gravity and physics at the table by trying to balance things on a convex surface?
NANP
So help me out here: why can you one moment say this with regards to passing to the right (which I completely agree with)
But then...
Isn't that also a pointless rule that has no basis in utility? I certainly understand that it is custom and might be good for appearances, but one might argue that passing to the right is also custom and at least has the utilitarian benefit of all dishes getting passed the same direction.
I'm not sure I can reconcile these two points.
I think Debrett's tells us, unsurprisingly, that if it's more comfortable for you to eat with your fork in the right and your knife in the left, then go for it. No butler in the land would punch you in the face for swapping the hands over. Most would punch you in the face if you attempted to shovel your food into your mouth using just a fork, though, as if it were a little trowel. Being punched in the face is absolutely no fun.
Toodlepip,
Hobbes
Why must I cut with my right hand, place the knife down, switch hands or be forced to use a fork in my left? What kind of sadist made up these table manners?!
Why do I have to hold the fork in my left hand always?
Well, traditionally, most children who were left-handed were "reprogrammed" at school to use the "correct" hand (their right). That died out after World War 2 as far as I know, so no-one really minds if you swap hands these days.
Interestingly enough, schools in Mainland China still "correct" left-handed children, forcing them to write with their right hands. My wife was born left-handed, but is now ambidextrous thanks to the Mainland Chinese educational system (as the English used to be).
Toodlepip,
Hobbes
This is the traditional joke regarding table manners, and its unsurprising to see it dominate the discussion here at B&B. It's a right pain to try and balance peas on the back of your fork, no one in the world is going to disagree with you on that, and it's one of the few guidelines of etiquette that most people chuckle over.
To understand why it comes about, consider the alternative. You flip your fork over, so that it looks like a little builder's instrument, and proceed to shovel the food into the mouth. The elbow necessarily sticks out. You probably stoop to meet the shovel. It's all very inelegant, and I would hazard a guess that is why forks are traditionally used tines-down (convex surface upwards). The conceit is to pluck delicately at one's food, rather than manually scoop it.
If that doesn't work for you, don't bother with it. I'm sure no one will bat an eyelid.
Toodlepip,
Hobbes
P.s. Most polite people understand the silliness of trying to eat one's peas the "proper" way, and will try to make you feel at ease. On a related note, my university entrance interview consisted of having lunch with my professor. Naively, I chose a dish that had peas in it. We were talking away, and he was watching me trying to balance my peas on the back of my fork like a well-trained but ultimately hopeless buffoon. He grinned and said under his breath, conspiratorially, "You don't have to finish the peas." That's my definition of good table manner.
Dom you did a great job. Well written and informative. I was brought up in a family who ate meals together at the table and manners were expected, but nothing over the top was pushed. Were I a head of state or a captain of industry and had to adhere to strict meal etiquette in order to conduct business this would all mean something to me.
As it is, I'll be completely blunt and show myself to be the oafish, boorish colonial that I am. I live in AZ where it's hot as blazes. When I get home I strip down to shorts and nothing else. Yes, I eat shirtless at home. It does not matter if I eat on fine china or paper plates. I don't give a rip which way food is passed nor which utensil gets used nor in which hand they are held. Set your glass where ever it's comfortable for you. I don't care if you cut all your food at once or do it over time and it does not matter where you put the dormant utensil when not in use. If a certain format works better for lefties then have at it. And just you try eating fried chicken or BBQ ribs without your elbows firmly on the table...plant them and dig in I say. I add salt and pepper to darn near everything and if some prospective employer would refuse to hire me over that, it's not somebody I'd want to work for anyway. If they are this anal over something so banal, how much worse is their potential? While I would not encourage the practice, I have been known to let the odd belch sqeak out. And after five years aboard ship I have the art of wolfing down a meal in record time down pat if need be.
The aforementioned all occurs within the confines of my home when no guests are present. When eating out or if company is over then of course I'm fully dressed, adhering to basic civilility and manners. Anything more is just made up rules to satisfy some mythical code of conduct. This is strictly my opinion, and I hold no bias or ill will towards anyone who wishes to observe all these rules. I simply feel my energies are better focused on loving my wife and kids and making the most of the time we have together.
I'm just a hayseed, hick, countryboy, with a good sense of humor. Love me as I am.
As it is, I'll be completely blunt and show myself to be the oafish, boorish colonial that I am. I live in AZ where it's hot as blazes. When I get home I strip down to shorts and nothing else. Yes, I eat shirtless at home
. It does not matter if I eat on fine china or paper plates. I don't give a rip which way food is passed nor which utensil gets used nor in which hand they are held. Set your glass where ever it's comfortable for you. I don't care if you cut all your food at once or do it over time and it does not matter where you put the dormant utensil when not in use. If a certain format works better for lefties then have at it. And just you try eating fried chicken or BBQ ribs without your elbows firmly on the table...plant them and dig in I say. I add salt and pepper to darn near everything and if some prospective employer would refuse to hire me over that, it's not somebody I'd want to work for anyway. If they are this anal over something so banal, how much worse is their potential? While I would not encourage the practice, I have been known to let the odd belch sqeak out. And after five years aboard ship I have the art of wolfing down a meal in record time down pat if need be. The aforementioned all occurs within the confines of my home when no guests are present. When eating out or if company is over then of course I'm fully dressed, adhering to basic civilility and manners. Anything more is just made up rules to satisfy some mythical code of conduct. This is strictly my opinion, and I hold no bias or ill will towards anyone who wishes to observe all these rules. I simply feel my energies are better focused on loving my wife and kids and making the most of the time we have together.
I'm just a hayseed, hick, countryboy, with a good sense of humor. Love me as I am.
I totally agree, everything has to have its place. Much of the above (and certainly the topics I've been mentioning) is really formal dining etiquette. This isn't at-home or with-friends behaviour, but more "High Table" stuff.
A true gentlemen "appears well in all company", as one of your chaps once put it so well...
Toodlepip,
Hobbes
A true gentlemen "appears well in all company", as one of your chaps once put it so well...
Toodlepip,
Hobbes
Dom you did a great job. Well written and informative. I was brought up in a family who ate meals together at the table and manners were expected, but nothing over the top was pushed. Were I a head of state or a captain of industry and had to adhere to strict meal etiquette in order to conduct business this would all mean something to me.
As it is, I'll be completely blunt and show myself to be the oafish, boorish colonial that I am. I live in AZ where it's hot as blazes. When I get home I strip down to shorts and nothing else. Yes, I eat shirtless at home
The aforementioned all occurs within the confines of my home when no guests are present. When eating out or if company is over then of course I'm fully dressed, adhering to basic civilility and manners. Anything more is just made up rules to satisfy some mythical code of conduct. This is strictly my opinion, and I hold no bias or ill will towards anyone who wishes to observe all these rules. I simply feel my energies are better focused on loving my wife and kids and making the most of the time we have together.
I'm just a hayseed, hick, countryboy, with a good sense of humor. Love me as I am.
+ 00.947264374621...
...I still wear a shirt to the table
I think many people will see that the point of the article is formal/dining out etiquette, not personal home meals. I will assert that most of the basic rules I adhere to, but only the pragmatic ones that would otherwise be rude. I will also note that if you ever eat with me, I may from time to time have to
(just kidding)great writeup, Dom, excellent reminders, and it's very interesting to hear about some of the customs from other part of the planet
Hm. Perhaps if Europeans are so inclined to punch diners in the face for no good reason, I need to reconsider my vacation plans. I much prefer your less violent habit of "because we say so" chiding.
For right handers
Knife - right
Fork - left
The fork holds the meat
The knife cuts it
Just like "Carousel"
It's the only way
Knife - right
Fork - left
The fork holds the meat
The knife cuts it
Just like "Carousel"
It's the only way
Has anybody mentioned....
Don't blow your nose at the table!
Don't blow your nose at the table!
Sorry, all. I should have specified that these are American table manners. Table manners in the UK, Europe, and in other countries are quite different. Even still, most of these points are not strict rules, but generalizations and/or suggestions. Please take the post with a grain of salt.
Also, I forgot to add a small statement to the passing 'rule'. Typically, you pass to the right. However, you never want to send anything in the direction opposite to the direction everything else is passed in (yes, it's a silly rule, but usually only used in more formal settings).
I'm sure I've missed a lot of things/mis-stated some things or just wrote in a confusing manner. Please draw my attention to them. Constructive criticism will only make this 'guide' better.
Thanks, B&B!
:9898: 
I wrote this long post about cultural differences, how to use dessert fork and spoon; where to place fork and knife on the plate when you are done, when you want to pause to do something else, how this varies from culture to culture and why you pass something to the right. I click Submit Reply and !"#$%$% web page just disappears...
I am not writing all that again.
Just remember to display effortless elegance. IMO, If you can be discrete, clean, considerate and respectful to others, do whatever you are comfortable doing. If you are a lefty and you want to hold your fork with your right hand and the knife with your left hand... who cares?! and if you do care if someone else does this, you have some serious problems man.
Thanks for your list burningdarkness.
Yep, its a disgusting habit.
In Japan its totally taboo to blow one's nose in public let alone at the dinner table, however, its socially aceptable to snort the stuff with the disgusting sounds that accompany such a action.
They also slurp anything noodle like as the air being drawn into the mouth stimulates the smell senses, this is to improve the flavour of the food, couldn't bring myself to do it but got used to the sound whenever I dined out in Tokyo.
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