I have over 25 coticule hones now and in all of those have only ever run into one that would not produce a good shaving edge. I have several La Grise and find them to be good solid well performing hones, but they do require a different approach. My biggest problem with coticules is they are addictive!! La Grise hones can and do vary, but I have some general tips that apply to most La Grise cotis. First of all, don't be shy about putting some pressure on the blade while honing. I put one finger on the middle of the blade spine and I am pushing down from first stroke to last. I fought this like the devil for the longest time. To much weight of the blade only stuff out there on videos. That advice is good for other veins when you are down to the final finish, but I find it worthless for all but the hardest of La Grise coticules. By pressure I mean just short of what would flex the edge of a full hollow singing blade. Having shot a lot of firearms over the years I would estimate it at about as much as it takes to squeeze a two pound trigger pull. Next, in the beginning, slurry the devil out of that rock! Pretty muddy slurry. I slurry most La Grise heavier than other veins. Then, if you are not already, become a fan of the half X stroke. This speeds things greatly. Now later on you will forsake lap counts for feel, but for now here is a simple method to get you going. 20 half X, Flip and 20 half X, then reduce by two, 18 per side 16 per side etc etc down to Full X strokes. Keep your slurry wet. There is a difference between dilution and just staying even with evaporation. If my slurry starts to become thicker than when I made it I add ONE drop of water just to keep my slurry in good shape. Once you get through the series of decreasing counts, add three or four drops of water to dilute and do it again. Exactly how much water to add for a dilution varies with the size of the stone. I have a big ole 8X3 that needs 4 or 5 for a dilution, but some of my small rocks only need 2. The first dilution or two you can be pretty bold with. Later keep them smaller and smaller as you approach plain water. When you get to the point that you are just about plain water stop and rinse everything! Blade, hands, stone, all get cleaned off completely. Then for your set of decreasing counts on water alone I add a quick rinse between sets. 20 rinse, 18 rinse and so on. Don't go all super light on the pressure even when using plain water. Most La Grise are slow enough that a little pressure is good for them. With time and familiarity you will make changes to this to suit your particular stone and style of honing, but this should get you in the ball park and easily keen enough that your Apache will take it the rest of the way. This system Will get me from bevel set on a 1200 DMT to ready to shave. HHT3 everywhere on the blade that linen and leather will bring up to a 4. If I want more than a 4 it is time to break out a Les Lat or more recently my Apache.
Coticule frustration and questions
- Thread starter Chaloney
- Start date
OH!!! One last tip! Gary Haywood is the guy is that even the most stubborn of coticules fear. Read everything you can find about how he hones!
I've got a small 7 or 8 bout coticule I picked up from Jarrod around 1-1/2 years ago. At the time, he was going through a "lap to 2000x" stage. Never had much luck with it until I re-lapped it on a worn coarse DMT Duosharp. Since then, it's given me some pretty consistent edges with decent HHTs off the strop.
- Thread starter
- #24
Alum- I just relapped mine on a dmt600. Didn't seem to make much difference.
Brian- thanks for the tips. I will try your approach. I may not have kept the slurrydry wet enough, and I think I'm progressing faster than that. The slurry especially seems to dry out extra quickly when it is thick. I have been using a decent amount of pressure--more than with my other stones. Gary gave me a suggestion in a pm that seems to have worked once. I'll post it here if I can get it to work again. I think between keeping the slurry wet, taking more time diluting, and taking more time on water (a big part of what Gary suggested), I have some direction.
Thanks everyone one for the help so far
Brian- thanks for the tips. I will try your approach. I may not have kept the slurry
Thanks everyone one for the help so far
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- Thread starter
- #25
Won a small vintage coticule on the bay this evening, so I have a backup plan to try before synthetics
Sit that rock down and tell it you have reported it to the master (Gary) and it will straighten out and behave!
If you want to see the ultimate edge your coticule will produce try the Unicot method. I personally hate tape, but if I had to quickly rate a stone as a finisher, I would perform a quick unicot. Even Bart, Coticule.be site creator and coticuler extrodinaire, looked up to by even Gaz Haywood, gravitated to the unicot method.
Find all you want about the unicot method at Coticule.be in the Coticule Sharpening Academy.
Once you know how good an edge your stone will produce with Unicot, you can strive for the same without tape and with technique you can achieve the same.
Did I say I hate tape? Later, Denny
Find all you want about the unicot method at Coticule.be in the Coticule Sharpening Academy.
Once you know how good an edge your stone will produce with Unicot, you can strive for the same without tape and with technique you can achieve the same.
Did I say I hate tape? Later, Denny
good advice from denny
At the risk of going out on a limb, I wonder if the remedy might not be a change of stropping method rather than a change of stone or honing technique. The reason I say this is because I just now did a refresher honing of two identical razors with my small coticule as mentioned before. Can't really say I have a formulaic method in using this stone, or have figured out coticules in general, but I have arrived at something reliable with it, however rudimentary. I sort of start out with a few half-strokes, then move to X-strokes concentrating on hitting the heel and the toe and letting the middle take care of itself. Skim milk slurry until it starts to turn noticeably grey, adjusting the introduction of the stroke until the slurry is washing up nicely on the blade, with a finger-load or two of water to dilute/refresh as needed. Rinse the blade and stone and finish with one or two dozen X-strokes with water. Off the stone, the edge is pretty much a dud as far as the HHT is concerned; maybe weakly severing a hair with popping in one or two places along the edge. So then I hit it with a dozen or so laps on cotton webbing, followed by around 30 laps on horsehide, pulling these relatively taut. HHT afterwards has improved, cutting along more of the edge, but still with slight jumps. This is followed by a dozen more laps on the cotton webbing, again pulling this relatively taut, followed by 60 laps or so on the horsehide, leaving this a little bit slack. The result is a significant improvement, with the hair falling more cleanly all along the edge. Maybe 20 more laps like this on the horsehide to address a localized area that is still not quite there, and it's ready. Along these lines, wouldn't leaving the strop slightly slack like this be functioning like taping at the end with the stone?
I love tape, and use it often, but let me state that all tapes are not created equal. I use .009" tape from an unnamed source. In my experience, the commonly available .0075" does not work nearly as well.
OK, no fair. You can't tell us it's better tape and then not tell us where to get some, that's just mean.
Why would a thicker tape be better? Seems like you would be making a steeper angle?
I seriously doubt that the tape he uses would make that much of a difference. I have no idea what the tape I use is, some kind of 3m stuff, it's free and comes in all kinds of pretty colors. Always worked out great for me.
The enhanced angle seems to be able to accept a better, and stronger edge. It works well for me, and I've tried numerous tests to prove it to myself.
I use .007 and typically replace it regularly to keep reinforcing that angle of attack. If I have visible damage, I've had success with 3 layers till it is gone, remove one and hone till I am hitting the edge again, and 1 till I am again hitting the edge.
Do you just use vintage steel? The thicker tape may just be compensating for not going in enough to get to really fresh steel.
I,d highly recommend the scotch tape 88 heavy duty as bill says you need the ticker tape for unicot for best results.
I think you will find the solution to your problem is to go back and REALLY set the bevel correctly....
It goes without saying that it should be shaving arm hair effortlessly off the setter. Everything you do after that is just refining and pushing what you have worked on.
- Thread starter
- #40
I think you will find the solution to your problem is to go back and REALLY set the bevel correctly....
As long as you don't start asking me about my mother.
