Oil on Coti

[wdwrx]

I anxious to hear your results Bart, and whoever else plans on giving it a try.
I'm wondering now if it may not be a factor in others not having success with coti's, you know, that "103 out of 133 coti's being no good" thing? I was almost resigned to the idea that I had one of those "other" cotis. It was only out of frustration and desperation and spurred on by that article on Coti.be that I considered trying lather and then oil.

The idea that these were the "go to" hones for barbers for 200 years yet I couldn't produce an edge from mine, made me think I must be missing something. It was as plain on the writing on my coti box what my next step should be.
Lard is definitely out of the question though.... yuck!

If i were to guess, I would say that the effect may not be as pronounced with finer hones. And probably unnecessary because if a fine edge can be achieved with water, what would be the point?

I'll try again tonight with a different razor, and see if I can repeat the result.
I hope others take the time to let us know what they find as well.

 

[Blue58]

I fully concur. That's why I said that the drop of detergent works like a charm on DMTs. Without it the water just sits in drops on the surface, like on the waxed hood of a car.

Concerning different kinds of oil, inspired by Chris' enthusiasm, I 'm giving it another go. I decided to try WD40, because I have it available and it supports Chris' theory that more lubrication leads to better edge definition. We'll see about that. I'll keep you guys posted.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I would advise against using the WD40 it contains parafin and that will be just like waxing your coti and that would make it useless. and you will never get the parafin completely off the stone.

 

[Bart]

I'm wondering now if it may not be a factor in others not having success with coti's, you know, that "103 out of 133 coti's being no good" thing? I was almost resigned to the idea that I had one of those "other" cotis.

It's actually 130 out of 133 Coticules being no good for razors. That person found only 3 of the 133 he tried to give acceptable results. In the end, after listening carefully to what the guy had to say, it seemed to come down to him expecting results from Coticules while using them as if they were typical synthetic water hones. That is not quite how they work.

If i were to guess, I would say that the effect may not be as pronounced with finer hones. And probably unnecessary because if a fine edge can be achieved with water, what would be the point?

I believe the problem with Coticules is that it can be very challenging to get to the limits of the keenness they CAN provide. Smoothness is for free on a Coticule, but not keenness! But if you can manage to make it work, you'll get one the best edges out there. The more I learn about these hones, the more I become convinced of that. It takes time before one can repeatedly reach that limit on just one Coticule. Luckily we have several options to make up for that.

But honestly, having worked with over well over 70 different Coticules, sharpening a minimum of 3 random razors on each one, I have not encountered one that needed anything else than water as a fluid.
That doesn't mean that oil might not somehow make it easier for you and perhaps others as well, to creep closer to the aforementioned keenness limit, that's so important to unleash the magic of a Coticule.
[/QUOTE]

I would advise against using the WD40 it contains parafin and that will be just like waxing your coti and that would make it useless. and you will never get the parafin completely off the stone.

Thank you for your concern, but it will be fine, really. Back in the old days, if a Coticule had a natural void or crack, they used to heat the Coticule in a skillet and flood it with a mixture of beeswax and hide glue. I have successfully done the same with a mixture of candle wax and Coticule dust, and after lapping everything nice and flush, the hone worked perfectly.
Of course, everyone chooses to experiment or not. If I couldn't afford loosing that Coticule, I wouldn't have put it a heated skillet. Anything that you can safely put on your hands without getting burn wounds, can be put on a Coticule and cleaned off later. I don't guarantee that it won't soak in just a little bit, although Coticules are on the verge of being impermeable.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

Words of wisdom as always Sir bart!
I will attest to the "challenging" part.

The nicest edge I've tried yet is one done by Symthe on a the Focus Extra i bought from him. It's knowing that something like that is achievable that has kept me going. It's also served to act as a bench mark for me... and keep me humble too.

what's that old saying about success being 10% luck and 90% perseverance...

 

[Bart]

Here's my follow up.

Today I took 3 silversteel Dovo's that were lying around here, and one Coticule, that I know to usually require some extra "convincing" during the finishing part before it agrees to deliver a great edge.

I dulled all 3 Dovo's with one downstroke on a beer bottle, worked on slurry till all three could manage to shave my arm hair again. Then I took each one of them through Dilucot, including 30 laps on water. As expected, they all 3 responded very similar to the HHT at that point: what I call a "violin". The hair doesn't pop, but a faint ringing sound can be heard as the hair is pulled across the edge.
On razor A, I then did what I always do on this Coticule. I added some water on top, did 2 sets of 10 halfstrokes and about 50 X-strokes to finish. HHT improved to a "catch and pop", which I know to be a good results for the hair I use.

For razor B, I dried the Coticule, added a few drops of mineral oil and performed 50 X-strokes, without the halfstrokes this time. After a first HHT which showed some improvement, I decided on another 50. This got me to the same HHT score as razor A. I did a final 50 strokes to see if there would be any further improvement, but there was not.
I also probed both blades with the TPT.

For Razor C, I did exactly the same as with razor B, but on WD40 this time, after cleaning the hone with mineral spirits. The results were very similar.

I just completed a test shave with these 3 razors, obviously after stropping them equally well. The edges were very comparable. Excellent shave, there is nothing I can report about differences between the 3 blades.

Of course this is just one test, but it seems that a fluid with more lubrication than plain water can facilitate the goal of reaching sufficient keenness to some extent, during the finishing procedure of Dilucot. Although I seem to be able to get the same with water and some extra effort, at least on the one hone I ran this little experiment on.
I can't tell if the same effect would be greater or smaller on another Coticule. I also can't tell if this principle works the same for finishing with a Coticule after one has established ample keenness with a synthetic hone.

Next time I will compare 3 Unicot edges, cut with water, oil and WD40.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

Great write up Bart.
I also have given this another try, though with a less rigorous scientific approach. I only had one razor to work with. I would have had it done last night but my son used it to open a pouch of cold medicine I was too upset to hone well and repare the damage he did to the edge so I've just now got it done.

I did a very long drawn out dilucot, to ensure I didn't out-pace the edge, and worked it right through to a finish on water.
The edge seemed to be right on par with my typical dilucot edges..... lacking just that little extra.... je ne sais qua. I didn't do a HHT because my sample typically won't give me any indicators at this point so I used SAH.

So, introduce the oil: I chose to try the castor oil. And this is where it gets interesting, and I 'd like to hear your description and specultions/interpretations, Bart, and anyone else who chooses to experiment with this. I tried really hard to monitor my experience so I could relate it for you guys. Please forgive my impoverished vocabulary.

At first, the sensation was a little disconcerting. The oil seemed to draw the edge down into the hone. The sense of abrasion was magnified, and the stroke seemed to have a lot of "catch and release" jerkiness to it. I adjusted my stroke to a 45 deg heel leading stroke and that seemed to help with the jerkiness. The sense of abrasion seemed to drop off and as the oil seemed to thin out, the draw became much smoother, and the sense of abrasion diminished quickly.
The addition of more oil increased the sense of draw, but the smooth feeling continued to improve. After only about 40 very light and incredibly slow stokes, there ceased to be any perceptible change in the way the razor felt moving across the hone. SAH shows an improvement in keenness comparable to my previous attempt. HHT 3 off the hone, which I can never do with my sample. HHT4 off the strops.

So, twice now, I've taken my typical dilucot edges which could only charitably be described as shaveable and made them into acceptable edges.

Unfortunately, I'm still unsure what it is in my dilucot process that's holding me back from achieving a great edge with only water. I may have found a cheat to make this stone work for me, but I still have a fatal flaw somewhere in my technique.

 

[Blue58]

I dont know if it makes any difference... but did you ever consider that I could be the water?? do you have hard water or soft water???

 

[wdwrx]

I dont know if it makes any difference... but did you ever consider that I could be the water?? do you have hard water or soft water???

I had considered this as our water is very hard... 250 ppm hard. Our water is the Chuck Norris of water. Our water is so hard, it drinks you.

Seriuosly though... I don't know.... could it make a difference?

 

[Bart]

I had considered this as our water is very hard... 250 ppm hard. Our water is the Chuck Norris of water. Our water is so hard, it drinks you.

Seriuosly though... I don't know.... could it make a difference?

Good thinking, Blue58.

Could it make a difference? Possibly yes. I have water from a well at my home. But occasionally the well dries out, and than I switch over to the community water system. The water from the well is soft, a bit acidic, high phosphate content, much iron. The water of the community is considerable harder, low in phosphate and iron. I can tell the difference while honing, notably if the way the slurry behaves. With the water from my well, the slurry has a different texture, tends to foam at a certain consistency and just feels a tad nicer. The harder community water is, well eh, harder, less succulent (I can't think of a better word in English) in a way.

The difference is not such that it affect the outcome, but I can imagine that *very* hard water can hold you back a bit.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

Well, not like it helps much, but Wikipedia had this to say about hard water.

Otherwise, I guess my next attempt will be with bottled water.... cheap enough, and easy enough to try.

 

[Blue58]

Well, not like it helps much, but Wikipedia had this to say about hard water.

Otherwise, I guess my next attempt will be with bottled water.... cheap enough, and easy enough to try.

The reason I thought about the water is... with our well if you fill a glass of water and then let it stand several hours you will find fine sand particles at the bottom of the glass. this will obviously prevent you from getting a smooth edge when you hone because it would be like going from a 800 grit stone up to 4k stone without wiping the residue off the blade first

it would not be hard to check your water... simply fill a clear glass with water and then let it stand for several hours and see what settles on the bottom.

 

[Chimensch]

Well, not like it helps much, but Wikipedia had this to say about hard water.

Otherwise, I guess my next attempt will be with bottled water.... cheap enough, and easy enough to try.

Considering the small amount of water used, I use distilled water in a spray bottle.

 

[Woodash]

Maybe I missed something, but did the OP mention that there was some problem with the water that led to his testing the oil? If so, what was it? When did the water become a problem?

OP...you out there?

 

[Blue58]

Maybe I missed something, but did the OP mention that there was some problem with the water that led to his testing the oil? If so, what was it? When did the water become a problem?

OP...you out there?

the OP was saying that he was unable to get a truly sharp edge on his straight using water with his coti. So he was experimenting with using oil and he was getting slightly better results.

I suggested that maybe it was possible that the water could be the problem if he was using well water or was perhaps on a community well. Because well water often contains sediments in it that could effect the honing by contaminating the coti surface with the much courser sediment particles which would then act like an 800 or 1k stone.

 

[Woodash]

the OP was saying that he was unable to get a truly sharp edge on his straight using water with his coti. So he was experimenting with using oil and he was getting slightly better results.

I suggested that maybe it was possible that the water could be the problem if he was using well water or was perhaps on a community well. Because well water often contains sediments in it that could effect the honing by contaminating the coti surface with the much courser sediment particles which would then act like an 800 or 1k stone.

OK - I understand about not getting a sharp edge, but I was trying to figure out how the quality of the water itself became a factor. Most solids in potable water are ~submicron precipitates and not pre-existing sediments. To be honest, it's hard for me to imagine how water quality would have any kind of blunting effect on the edge, but who knows...?

 

[Blue58]

OK - I understand about not getting a sharp edge, but I was trying to figure out how the quality of the water itself became a factor. Most solids in potable water are ~submicron precipitates and not pre-existing sediments. To be honest, it's hard for me to imagine how water quality would have any kind of blunting effect on the edge, but who knows...?

As I said in an earlier post.... The reason I thought about the water is... with our well if you fill a glass with water and then let it stand several hours you will find visible fine sand particles that have settled to the bottom of the glass.These sand particles would be in suspension when you first draw the water from the tap to use for honing. Which will then end up on your 4k or 8k hone

 

[wdwrx]

In all honesty, blaming the water is probably giving me too much credit. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Our water, though hard, doesn't leave any sediment deposits. We are on the municipal water supply, which is sourced 100% from a local river (read surface water) but we're only 100 km from the Rockies so there is a lot of dissolved dolomite in it. Which, if I remember my highschool chemistry, is actually dissolved in it, so it shouldn't be a solid. Only through some arcane chemical reaction is the evidence of it's hardness visible as scale and deposits.... and I never could get MWF to lather for me!

Regardless, bottled water is cheap enough that it's worth a try.
What it boils down to (no pun intended...) is that i am still learning the dilucot on this stone. Masters like Bart, I'm sure, have no (or few) problems getting a good edge on just about any stone.... me, on the other hand.... Lets just say i have lots to learn.

 

[Bart]

OK - I understand about not getting a sharp edge, but I was trying to figure out how the quality of the water itself became a factor. Most solids in potable water are ~submicron precipitates and not pre-existing sediments. To be honest, it's hard for me to imagine how water quality would have any kind of blunting effect on the edge, but who knows...?

I don't think we should speak about a blunting effect. But that does not mean that certain properties of the fluid cannot have a minimal effect on the abrasive properties of the hone.
It is a proven fact that dishwashers perform better with softened water. If it has an influence there, it is not entirely impossible that there's an influence on the performance of a hone as well. It's easy enough for Chris to find out.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

...It's easy enough for Chris to find out. ...

whoo hoo! More practice!

make supper for the kids....

hone a razor.....







No contest! I guess we're ordering in!

 

[gary haywood]

i've tryed lather and i did'nt care for it much. soapy water i actauly liked. i tend to use it on my diamond plate, and coticule at finishing stages just for a change