Where can I learn about different types of Coticules?

[GreekGuy]

I'm seriously considering upgrading from my barber's hone to a coticule. I've read most of the articles at Coticule.be as well as spent a significant amount of time perusing Jarrod's site.

My question is: where can I learn more about the difference between LGP, LBP, La Verte, etc..

And if you could buy 1 hone, price/availability being no object, what would you get? A thurigan? A massive Coti? A Jnat?

I really appreciate your advice and suggestions. Thanks guys

 

[rickboone1]

Money no object.. Jnat. amazing edges come from those rocks. There are some that can come close on a coticule, but those are VERY skilled coticule users.

 

[Loric]

If you only want one stone I'd say get the Coticule as its the most versatile. A J-nat and Thrui will both make a keener edge, however if you were to ever need to reset a bevel both would be much less useful. I prefer the edge of my Thrui to any of my Coti's, however its only a one trick pony. Sometimes I get somewhat close to the same keenes from a Coti, but its never quite the same.

I'v never used a Jnat so I cant comment on them. What I do know about them is that there seems to be much more variation between each stone than other types or hones, so you really have to have to trust the person picking one out for you.

As to what Coti to pick out, they all end up in vaguely the same place once you figure them out. I can nit pick slight differences between a couple I have, but really the difference between them is in speed and feel while honing. If I had to pick one, I'd go for a LPB or Les Lat with an exposed hybrid side. My LPB's are the easiest and fastest coticules I have, as they work perfectly with Garry Haywoods abbreviated honing technique. My Les Lat is almost as fast, but with the glacieen hybrid side, the edge is a touch keener and a maybe a touch smoother. Just my two cents.

Here is a fantastic link to the differences between Coticules. There will always be variance in one stone to another in any layer, but its a good starting point for figuring out if one layer might suite you better than another.

I cant remember where the original post was, but here is something Harvitz81 (I think) wrote a while back that I saved.

There are going to be variations within each layer so it is impossible to really define characteristics specific for each layer. There are trends though and from my experience and what I've read this is what I know in general of these layers.

La Veinette - own 2 of these. Both extremely fast on slurry (one is just ridiculous) and both are in general slow on water. This leads to a mellow edge IME.

Les Latneuses yellow - fast on both slurry and water. A little more brisk edge from water only.

Les Latneuses Hybrid - Moderate speed on slurry and slow on water. Leaves one of the most smooth and mellow edges I've come across.

La Petite Blanch - Fast on slurry and mine is moderate on water. Leaves an "engaging edge" between mellow and brisk.

La Grosse Jaune - Mine is moderate to fast on slurry and slow to moderate on water. Leaves a very mellow edge.

La Grosse Blanch - very similar to the LGJ

La Grise - Slow on slurry and water. Some are moderate speed on slurry, but I've never seen one discussed as being fast on slurry. Smooth edges.

Not really experienced with La Dressante, La Dressante Au Bleu, La Verte, La Nouvelle Veine or the others I'm forgetting.

Keep in mind that these are characteristics of MY stones only. Each layer and coticule will have it's own characteristics and the fun in all this is figuring out where your stone fits.

In general if you want a fast stone on slurry a La Petite Blanch or La Veinette is your best bet. If you want a finisher only I would probably think a La Grise and certain La Veinettes would fit the bill as well. Granted, I have not come across a coticule that isn't a good finisher once you figure the stone out.

Also, I'm defining the edges as mellow, engaging, and brisk as Bart does in the coticule vault. To be totally honest if you gave me 3 of the same razors each honed on a different coticule that I own in a blindfold test I highly doubt I could tell you which was honed on which layer.

 

[Brownbear]

If you go for a coticule and you are looking for a finisher mostly, check out La Verte. A Verte in about 30-40 mm by 150 isn't too expensive and they leave a very keen and shaveable edge. For touch ups their slowness won't matter and it won't take a lot of effort to learn.

 

[Kentos]

How much should one budget for a thuri? Or more specific, what is cut off price between good and ripped off?

 

[Joe Edson]

Attendum to my post above about characteristics.

La Dressante's I've read vary all over the place. Mine is fast on both slurry and water and leaves one of the most keen edges I get off coticules.

La Verte - mine is actually moderately fast on slurry (though I've read that some of these are quite slow on slurry). It is also slow on water. It is the hardest yellow coticule I have (the LL hybrid side is harder). These leave a very keen edge as well and I'm really starting to like this one.


If I was going to get one and only one coticule though it would most definitely be a La Veinette. They are extremely easy to use. They don't experience slurry dulling (like a LPB will). They are easy to finish with and leave one of the best edges. They are IMHO the Rolls Royce of coticule layers.

 

[Loric]

How much should one budget for a thuri? Or more specific, what is cut off price between good and ripped off?

You see them quite often on BST for $65~$150 depending on size and condition. However if you want an Escher, they sell for crazy money $400+ is not a shocking price to see paid. Just be careful there are some newer Thuris that are much coarser than the older stones. I dont know enough to spot the differences, I wish I had more advice on choosing a good one. I resorted to purchasing one from a trusted member here on B&B and all worked out for me.

Another option is a Frankonian hone from Olivia's. They are very similar to a Thuri and are rumored to be mined in the same aria. The price is a bit steep ~$170 for a ~145x70mm, and shipping takes a LONG time, but its a consistent coarse.

 

[Blix]

I have an additional question, when you order from Arenne, can you choose different types?
On their website the only selction is "select" or "standard".

 

[Loric]

I have an additional question, when you order from Arenne, can you choose different types?
On their website the only selction is "select" or "standard".

They can help you find something if you know exactly what your looking for. However if you wanted to pick one out, I'd look at the Supiriror Shave. Jarrod is kind enough to take in individual pictures and measurements of his stock, so it makes picking something out quite easy.

Select and standard both work the same. Its just that the standard ones tend to have more visual oddities to them i.e. more dark spots. More often than not I think these ones have more character.

 

[Blix]

They can help you find something if you know exactly what your looking for. However if you wanted to pick one out, I'd look at the Supiriror Shave. Jarrod is kind enough to take in individual pictures and measurements of his stock, so it makes picking something out quite easy.

Select and standard both work the same. Its just that the standard ones tend to have more visual oddities to them i.e. more dark spots.

Thanks, yeah I've seen Jarrods site, spent quite some time there actually.
But all he seems to have is odd shaped bouts at the time.
I can probably send those Ardennes guys an email and hear what they have. I want something like a 150mmx40mm La Veinette I guess.

 

[danjared]

Just be careful there are some newer Thuris that are much coarser than the older stones. I dont know enough to spot the differences, I wish I had more advice on choosing a good one. I resorted to purchasing one from a trusted member here on B&B and all worked out for me.

This is not quite correct. There are newer German hones which are often resold as Thüringer hones, but the manufacturer, MST, does not follow this deceptive practice, nor are these newer stones found in the German state of Thüringia. It is tricky, because they visually look similar to Thüringer stones and also originate from MST. (MST is mostly out of their stock of actual Thüringers, although it still has some small ones. The problem is that they do not sell directly to consumers, so you would have to go through a reseller, such as Timber Tools, which typically call them "the Original Escher", which is somewhat of a trademark infringement.)

I wish I didn't have to repeat this every month, but it seems like this is frequently misunderstood.

 

[danjared]

I'm seriously considering upgrading from my barber's hone to a coticule. I've read most of the articles at Coticule.be as well as spent a significant amount of time perusing Jarrod's site.

My question is: where can I learn more about the difference between LGP, LBP, La Verte, etc..

And if you could buy 1 hone, price/availability being no object, what would you get? A thurigan? A massive Coti? A Jnat?

I really appreciate your advice and suggestions. Thanks guys

If you are to buy a stone, my only advice is not really monetary in nature (although it could save you money). It would be to actually invest the time to learn one stone and master it. Rushing into using many stones, it is extremely difficult to learn to master one and get great results from it--you'd learn to get okay results with many stones but not necessarily great results from any one of them.

 

[Brownbear]

If you are to buy a stone, my only advice is not really monetary in nature (although it could save you money). It would be to actually invest the time to learn one stone and master it. Rushing into using many stones, it is extremely difficult to learn to master one and get great results from it--you'd learn to get okay results with many stones but not necessarily great results from any one of them.

I think this advice is more important that what finisher you buy. Unless, as many of us have, you become a hobbyest and enthusiast, any of the mentioned stones will serve provided you focus, take the time and learn it well. If you become an enthusiast, then god help you and your wallet

 

[taffy]

The above 2 posts make a lost of sense, my own experience is that I get great results from my coti, I have even sent 2 razors out for honing, with for a coti finish, the other with a escher finish, and if honest, my self honed razors match them, I have thought about buying a thung/escher, but to splash out that sort of money when I get great results from my coti, now seems pointless. I will also add that it took me a fair old time to learn about my coti, but it seems worthwhile now, though if I ever see a honing stone in a antique shop I would buy it in hope, but that's just H A D, which most of us have

 

[GreekGuy]

Thanks guys for all the excellent replies. They have been really helpful

So for something like the La Veinette, I probably want one thats about 50mm by 150mm right? I'm used to working on small barber's hones, but if I'm going to spend time tracking one down, do you think it makes sense to splurge for a good sized one?

I've seen a few at jarrod's site, but they seem to go quickly. I take it that I'm just going to have to stalk his website until they come up. I assume the type of slurry stone isn't THAT important, which may be a dumb assumption

And what should I be expected to spend on an hone like this?

 

[Legion]

You could try your luck with a WTB. Someone might need the coin.

 

[danjared]

Thanks guys for all the excellent replies. They have been really helpful

So for something like the La Veinette, I probably want one thats about 50mm by 150mm right? I'm used to working on small barber's hones, but if I'm going to spend time tracking one down, do you think it makes sense to splurge for a good sized one?

I've seen a few at jarrod's site, but they seem to go quickly. I take it that I'm just going to have to stalk his website until they come up. I assume the type of slurry stone isn't THAT important, which may be a dumb assumption

And what should I be expected to spend on an hone like this?

"Rectangular" hones are typically much more expensive than bouts (which are usually but not always irregularly shaped). Since the beginning of the year, La Veinette, Les Latneuses and La Petite Blanche (and to a lesser degree any natural combination hones) have been placed in special pricing categories. A 150mm by 50mm La Veinette is unlikely to be found for less than $200, both because of the pricing category and because it's very rare to get a non-combo La Veinette. There is also questionable gain to getting a stone of this vein versus one from another. (For example, personally, I find La Grise easier to use, and it's not got all the hype.)

As far as width, 40mm is very traditional and also an ideal width, being perfect for razors.

My personal advice would be to go to knifecenter.com, where they have a pretty good price on 175mm by 40mm boxed coticules right now. Then get a slurry stone from somewhere else. You'd be set for life.

 

[DavyRay]

I have a vintage rectangular natural combo coti, a coti natural combo bout, and a coti slurry stone. I also use a couple of Japanese naturals as finishers. My only bit of advice is that the vintage coti stones were usually narrow and long, about 40mm x 170mm. Length is convenient. Width can actually be detrimental, as many old razors are not completely planar. A smiling razor requires an X stroke on a relatively narrow hone to make a really good edge. Long is good. Narrow is also good.

My Jnats are larger than that, but then, they are different in many ways.

Edit: While I was posting, I see now that Danjared was also posting. That's two votes for narrow cotis.

 

[Brownbear]

+1 on narrow. 30-40 is the sweet range for me, never over 40. 150-175 length is just right. And these are cheaper. My favorite finisher is a 40 x 150 Verte and it is near perfect.

 

[GreekGuy]

The Boker at knifecenter looks like a good deal, and a nice size, even if it is a bit of a gamble on the actual layer. From looking at Jarrod's inventory, it looks like I'm stuck with a bout, even if I don't mind getting a narrow stone.

Where else can you even buy coti's other than the BST?