Riding the cap vs Riding cap and bar on a de razor

[Southbound1]

Hi all

I just got to wandering about riding the cap which is supposed to be a shallow a shaving angle vs Riding cap and and bar is considered a steep shaving angle I have seen the visuals with a safety razor against the skin and riding the cap etc.. I may have it backwards but i think maybe riding the cap and leaving the 'saftey bar' off the skin is not safer and not be more gentle. That's the purpose of the safety bar isn't it?? To flatten the skin infront of the blade and provides protection from nicks or cuts Riding the cap only even with a aggressive razor, then your shaving with a straight razor on a de handle. I maybe wrong. I would like to here others thoughts on this subject.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

A very similar question from back in August:

Steep vs shallow angle?

I don't know if this subject has already been discussed before, but I was wondering if there are certain modern DE razors that tend to perform better using a shallow angle vs a steep angle, or maybe both angle approaches? It seems there are die-hard proponents of both approaches to getting an...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[StlEd]

When I sharpen/hone my straight razors, I lay them flat on the stone, sand paper, or honing film to get the narrowest edge angle possible. When shaving with a straight, I use it flat against my skin. This has the bevel on the skin presenting the least edge angle; if the edge is raised the shave isn't as close, if the spine is raised the edge digs in or is scraping.

Likewise, when using a DE, I want the edge of the bevel flat against my skin. Since different blades are sharpened to different angles (anywhere from 13 to 18 degrees, from what I've read), and different razors hold blades differently, I don't think "ride the cap" or "ride the bar" is correct. Rather, for each razor/blade combination I like to find the angle where the blade's bevel rides against my skin. This can take some experimentation by feel or sound, or by looking at the blade against, maybe, the inside of a forearm.

I believe I've mentioned in the past that I use occasionally use straights, and Rolls Razors, and single edge razors, and that considering how they are used has helped with using a DE, because shaving is largely about how the bevel meets the beard...

 

[Gecko45]

I started with a vanderhagen weishi. To make it shave.. i had to ride the safety bar, but most of the time i had to have the bar, the blade edge, and the cap in contact at same time.

I dont KNOW if i ride the cap or bar now. I really dont know as its every changing, like every stroke i make. Its different

 

[Iridian]

Rather, for each razor/blade combination I like to find the angle where the blade's bevel rides against my skin. This can take some experimentation by feel or sound, or by looking at the blade against, maybe, the inside of a forearm.

I also think this is the right way.

Razors are different. Some guide you strongly to the correct angle, like the Hensons, some like you more to ride the cap and go shallow, the Blackbird for instance.

Some razors provide little guidance at all, there you can pick your angle.

Two bed similar razors with different angles are the Wunderbar and the SuperSlant, the Wunderbar rather shaves by riding the cap, the SuperSlant works with a steeper angle.

I like some leeway. Under the nose I usually do a very steep scraping type of shave, I prefer that to going sideways which is more prone to injury, at least in my case.

This was not just in response to Ed but more to the OP.

I just wanted to highlight that I share his right regarding finding the angle for the razor. One doesn't have to think about that, you will feel it, your skin will give you feedback.

 

[Iridian]

I dont KNOW if i ride the cap or bar now. I really dont know as its every changing, like every stroke i make. Its different

The razors you mentioned are meant for mass appeal, so they tend to be rather mild.

Which usually means they have little to no or even negative exposure of the blade.

This makes them very safe, but to get a clean shave one often had to literally press them down into to skin to get a bit more blade contact. The angle of the blade becomes relatively fixed at a predetermined angle when doing so.

Don't apply pressure funnily rarely refers to the razors that mention it. For razors with high exposure few dare to do that, it world guarantee injury.

The question which angle the blade has becomes not so meaningful when one has to press down like that.

 

[Gecko45]

The razors you mentioned are meant for mass appeal, so they tend to be rather mild.

Which usually means they have little to no or even negative exposure of the blade.

This makes them very safe, but to get a clean shave one often had to literally press them down into to skin to get a bit more blade contact. The angle of the blade becomes relatively fixed at a predetermined angle when doing so.

Don't apply pressure funnily rarely refers to the razors that mention it. For razors with high exposure few dare to do that, it world guarantee injury.

The question which angle the blade has becomes not so meaningful when one has to press down like th

i dont know if i ride the cap or the bar for any razor. Im pretty sure i ride the cap for my fatboy but i cant be sure. its shaving

 

[kingfisher]

Unless the razor has an immense gap it is almost impossible to 'ride the cap' and not have the safety bar also touching the skin.

I think steep versus shallow is a fractional game, and represents an intention more than actual fact. In other words, the shaver who says he shaves shallow has a thought or an idea to shave shallow, and the opposite for a guy who says he shaves steep. But skin is elastic and contours change. Everybody likely is engaging both the cap and the bar most of the time.

 

[esee]

Since different blades are sharpened to different angles (anywhere from 13 to 18 degrees, from what I've read), and different razors hold blades differently, I don't think "ride the cap" or "ride the bar" is correct.

@StlEd where did you get the 13-18° sharpening angles from? I tried to determine the sharpening angles of blades but couldn’t find a definitive answer. My research revealed a 7° sharpening angle for the sharpest straight edge blades. People sharpen super-sharp Japanese knives to angles ranging from 10° to 15°, but they sharpen standard kitchen knives to angles between 20° and 25°. I then tried to measure some angles at which the vintage stroppers strop at and my crude measurements returned a 10° angle for both vintage stroppers which I measured. So I am leaning towards a 10° bevel for the super sharp DE razor blades, yet you may be right that the more mild blades fall closer to 15°.

My first attempt at sharpening a razor blade was to put on a 15° bevel with a pull through knife sharpener. Although a 15° bevel is razor sharp on a kitchen knife, I found the 15° bevel insufficiently sharp for a razor blade. A 10° bevel appears to be sharp enough for me. It wouldn’t surprise me if Feather uses a 7° bevel for its blades.

Unless the razor has an immense gap it is almost impossible to 'ride the cap' and not have the safety bar also touching the skin.

I think steep versus shallow is a fractional game, and represents an intention more than actual fact. In other words, the shaver who says he shaves shallow has a thought or an idea to shave shallow, and the opposite for a guy who says he shaves steep. But skin is elastic and contours change. Everybody likely is engaging both the cap and the bar most of the time.

Returning to the OP’s question, we must clarify what a steep vs shallow angle is. People mostly refer to how they hold the handle when thinking of a steep versus shallow angle. With razors such as the Henson, one can hold the handle at a very steep angle while using the guard. This person may think that they're shaving at a steep angle, but in reality, the blade is contacting the face with an extremely shallow angle because of the blade’s curvature. Therefore, the crucial angle when considering steep versus shallow angles is the one at which the blade meets the face, not the angle of the handle. Handle angle is merely a matter of comfort. From a strictly physics point of view, cutting at a shallow angle is far more efficient.

The cap and the guard together form an effective shaving range. Different razors have different effective shaving ranges. Some razors have a wider shaving range and others more narrow. When one is always contacting the cap and the guard together, that means that the razor they’re using only has a very narrow effective range.

What angles the razor allows one to shave may be one of the greatest factors on whether one enjoys that razor. If the cap has a steep angle and the blade has a shallow angle, the steep angle is unavoidable, even while riding the cap. If the guard is long, then riding the guard may force one into a shallow angle.

Considering a specific razor’s effective shaving angles partially explains why different razor blades perform well in different razors. whether one likes a sharp blade with a shallow angle or vice versa is very person specific. Some may find a sharp blade scrapes them with a steep angle, and others may find that dull blade pulls their hair while shaving at a steep angle. Regarding a shallow angle, some may find a sharp blade’s bite while others get the perfectly smooth shave with a shallow angle and a sharp blade. For me, the highest risk areas of cutting myself while using a shallow angle, is under my nose and at my chin.

 

[StlEd]

@StlEd where did you get the 13-18° sharpening angles from? I tried to determine the sharpening angles of blades but couldn’t find a definitive answer. My research revealed a 7° sharpening angle for the sharpest straight edge blades. People sharpen super-sharp Japanese knives to angles ranging from 10° to 15°, but they sharpen standard kitchen knives to angles between 20° and 25°. I then tried to measure some angles at which the vintage stroppers strop at and my crude measurements returned a 10° angle for both vintage stroppers which I measured. So I am leaning towards a 10° bevel for the super sharp DE razor blades, yet you may be right that the more mild blades fall closer to 15°.

The data sources are hardly definitive, but I started with a couple of threads here in Badger & Blade.

Post #10 here Bevel angle of blades? - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/bevel-angle-of-blades.556816/
And post #2 here Blade bevel angle - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/blade-bevel-angle.642750/

After that, I spent time wandering the web, and found numbers anywhere from 7 to 40 degrees, but most of what I recall seemed to fall in the 13 to 18 degree range. As such, I was merely pointing out that different blades could lead to a different optimal shave angle in the same razor.

 

[esee]

The data sources are hardly definitive, but I started with a couple of threads here in Badger & Blade.

Post #10 here Bevel angle of blades? - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/bevel-angle-of-blades.556816/
And post #2 here Blade bevel angle - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/blade-bevel-angle.642750/

After that, I spent time wandering the web, and found numbers anywhere from 7 to 40 degrees, but most of what I recall seemed to fall in the 13 to 18 degree range. As such, I was merely pointing out that different blades could lead to a different optimal shave angle in the same razor.

If your reference numbers are correct, then DE blades are actually quite dull when compared to straight edges. I don’t really know what bevel angles DE blades use. My successful attempts to sharpen modern DE blades come from vintage sharpeners that have predefined angles. I sharpened a dull blade successfully using the Stanford five-second sharpener and then stropped the blade using the Twinplex stropper.

I am planning to turn my attention to single edge blades, as I may have succeeded already in sharpening double edge blades. I originally thought single edge blades will be easier to sharpen, yet the best sharpening gizmos appear to be made for DE blades. For now, I may have to use more traditional methods of sharpening for single edge blades, which would require me to choose a proper angle. In order to know the proper angle, I needed some kind of reference angle. The only reference angles I can get are from the vintage stroppers, like the Valet auto strop and another stropping tool which I have. I tried to take the angle that the Valet auto strop, strops at, and I had a tough time getting the exact angle, as when the leather was slack I was getting an angle closer to 15° but to the best of my measurements which may not be accurate I got 10° when the actual stropping is taking place.

I have completed no shaves with an at home sharpened single edge blade yet. But based on my preliminary findings, I am getting better results with a 10° bevel over a 15° bevel. I guess only time will tell if I can successfully manually sharpen a single edge blade, as I could theorize about bevel angles, bevel deformation, antenna duller angle appear sharper. But in the end, how the blade shaves is the only thing that matters.

 

[wetshaver233]

It all comes down to personal preference, shave style and of course - how the razor is designed. While some razors do allow it's user to tamper a bit with the angle and are capable to shave in more than one way, some razors like the Henson for instance don't really allow that and for some that's a turn off.

Personally, I enjoy shaving with razors that allow it's user to have more control and use them in a way to match their shave style, but that's just me. Like with pretty much anything related to shaving, there's no right or wrong answer here and neither is one better or worse than the other.

I understand that some folks are trying to find the secrets of shaving and decode it's mysteries and reveal them to everyone, but sadly I don't believe that's ever going to happen. In the end of the day, it's all about what works for you and that's where the beauty of shaving lies - having your own tailored and personal experience rather than going back to what the majority of men are using these days - cartridges and electric razors.

 

[esee]

For my two day thick beard growth, I used my Dorco ST301 for the 12th time. I paired this Dorco blade with the super mild Silver Star tech clone razor. I got a wonderful close irritation free shave using an extremely shallow angle. Yet after three passes, this razor was not cutting my chin area and some of my neck area. Instead of switching to another more aggressive razor, I tried what @Iridian said about using a steep angle together with a very light touch under the nose and at the Chin. Using this steep angle while barely touching my skin, removed my chin and neck hair without causing much more irritation from my apple cider vinegar aftershave. As a matter of fact, I barely got any irritation from this shave.

I’m still in the camp that the one True proper Way of shaving is at a shallow angle, yet I now understand why some people prefer razors that have a wide range of effective angles. Yet, I still think it’s blasphemy, and an act of evil when a razor manufacturer produces a razor that only allows steep angles.