Help Me ID My Nagura Stones

[Saloogie]

His stones are not Novaculite.
The seller seems to think anything he views to be fine grained quartz is Novaculite.
Nope.
Study the geology of the area they come from and what they really are becomes apparent.

He sells a lot of the stones with different names that he makes up and changes as he goes. He started using the term Rosetta around when I made the video. The Rosetta stones were and still are the same exact stones he was selling mostly before then. Remember, this has been going on for a very long while. Sure, I could shave off of the Superior Fine Canadian stones but i have also shaved off of a slab of Agate, onyx, Chalcedony, and my Shapton 1.5k bevel setter.

With other types of stones sold by that vendor, the coarser stuff, as supplies dwindle, new names appear. I remember when Lochnivar arrived, and Nakoda. I think one of the slurry stones in my vid was Nakoda. Another one I had here was lochnivar.

They are still selling many stones that are identical to some of the examples I had here and tested but they are now called 'Rosetta' premium fine or superior fine. There is Rosetta coarse now, I forget the oid name for that one. The same method of grading is still in place. Superior, Premium, etc. but he dropped the numbers. A lot of the description jargon doesn't apply to geology. Some terms, like Sericite, do apply to geology but it's just mica and not adding to the sharpening equation. Sounds impressive though.

There is very little consistency to be seen across the offerings. The grading system is erratic and unreliable.

The Canadian stones are not 'water based'. They are just found stones from a location in Canada, formed like every similar stone like them. The seller intermittently says different things, saying they are using with water soluble oil is one of the things he says sometimes for the 'finishing' stones. Why it has to be water soluble is beyond me. He usually doesn't even mention water with that particular type of stone.

An oil stone is a stone that was used with oil. Arks can be used with water but were typically used with oil. The softer Arks really do best with oil and using them with water can become problematic.
The term 'water stone' came from stones that weren't able to be used with oil.
Mostly synths.
Eschers don't like oil. So they're water stones because the majority of people use them that way. But people called them water stones.
Some people have used Eschers with oil. Most people use Coticules with water but some use them with oil.
I can put oil on a synthetic water stone if I want to but there has never been a good reason to want to do that.

Thanks for that answer and your opinions Gamma. I know you're not particularly fond of these stones, or the seller, and I have no reason not to believe you given your long experience with honing. But I'm going to continue working on them and see how good an edge I can get from them. After all, I might as well, I own them!

Right now I'm working on the Invitica (thanks @Koop !), which I think might be the best of the 3, with the slurry stone provided and it is giving me a very fine edge, maybe my best ever off of a natural stone(?), but then I think I overdid it or made a bad pass or two and the edge dulled. This slurry stone is super hard, but seems to work well. Maybe the Nagura 's are not the way to go here? We'll see. I might give them a go today as well. I'm taking a break to write this and I'll go back at it to bring the edge back and give it a good strop & shave later.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Slurry is a double edge sword, yes it can polish a bevel, but at the same time, edge impact can damage a fine micro edge. Add to that the base stone does not remain static like a piece of glass and, the base stone slurry may not enhance or break down like the nagura or at the same rate.

Which is why if you use slurry, it is thinned to polish and rehabilitate the edge, but only if the base stone is capable of polishing the bevel AND the edge on its own.

Bottom line test, can a natural finisher improve a good shaving 8k edge? If not, it is not a finisher and adding random grit is not likely to overcome the base stone.

There is a reason why most of us end up with a handful of proven, (for Centuries) natural finishers.

If you have not perfected your 8k edge, you might start there.

Rock on.

 

[Gamma]

Thanks for that answer and your opinions Gamma.

I only posted facts, not opinions.
I have zero problems with the seller or the stones. They are who and what they are and I just tell it how it is.
As for being fond, or not, of either, it's irrelevant really.
But, FWIW I got along well with the seller in private conversation. I can like someone who is chronically incorrect, and disagree vehemently with their business practices for legitimate reasons. I just don't wont spend my money with them or waste my time trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[Saloogie]

Slurry is a double edge sword, yes it can polish a bevel, but at the same time, edge impact can damage a fine micro edge. Add to that the base stone does not remain static like a piece of glass and, the base stone slurry may not enhance or break down like the nagura or at the same rate.

Which is why if you use slurry, it is thinned to polish and rehabilitate the edge, but only if the base stone is capable of polishing the bevel AND the edge on its own.

Bottom line test, can a natural finisher improve a good shaving 8k edge? If not, it is not a finisher and adding random grit is not likely to overcome the base stone.

There is a reason why most of us end up with a handful of proven, (for Centuries) natural finishers.

If you have not perfected your 8k edge, you might start there.

Rock on.

Wow, that is good info right there, thank you!

I have been able to get a good edge out of my King 8k, but I might not be improving on that with my finishing stones. I will have to check that out. I guess I should use straight water on my finishing stones to see if they really are finishers then, if I am understanding you correctly.

 

[Saloogie]

I only posted facts, not opinions.
I have zero problems with the seller or the stones. They are who and what they are and I just tell it how it is.
As for being fond, or not, of either, it's irrelevant really.
But, FWIW I got along well with the seller in private conversation. I can like someone who is chronically incorrect, and disagree vehemently with their business practices for legitimate reasons. I just don't wont spend my money with them or waste my time trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Poor wording on my part, I didn't mean to come off as condescending or anything. I know you have been at this game for a long time and you know your stuff. Thanks for all your help.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you learn to max out an 8k edge, it is not just the 8k that makes the edge, it is all the stones in the progression. You max the performance of each stone, your bevel setter, the transition stone and your finisher or pre-finisher.

You should be able to get a very good, keen and comfortable shave from your 8k with a pristine stria pattern from heel to toe, from back of the bevel to the edge off of each stone in your progression and a straight, keen edge.

Then if you want a natural finisher, for added comfort, the natural should only take a few laps to refine the pristine 8k edge or whatever your pre-finisher is.

So, yes if your natural finisher cannot improve a good shaving 8K edge, no slurry or nagura will help it.

Google (My Second Try at Honing).

Look at his bevels and edges, at each stone in the progression. It was the second razor a new honer had ever honed, the razor was an eBay beater with a large chip from the heel.

Make your bevels look like his, at each stone, then see if your “Finishers” can improve the bevel and edge. If not, they are not finishers.

The post is a step-by-step photo tutorial with micrographs the honer took on a $30 USB scope.

Here is the razor pre-honed and his finished 12k bevel.

EBay beater bevel and edge

12k Naniwa bevel and edge.

 

[Saloogie]

More great info @H Brad Boonshaft !

Yes, I have worked my razors through the King 1k to 6k and finally onto the 8k and I have gotten some really good edges. I have a cheapo 3 or 4k, I forgot which right now, that I can throw into the mix if needed. But listening to what your saying, my mistake was going onto a finishing stone for what was likely to long. And it wouldn't improve the edge. I guess I was doing to many passes hoping to make it super keen, but I was actually losing a bit of the edge instead. I guess I was thinking the finishing stone was going to give me the sharpest edge by working it a long time. I see that's a mistake now and likely where my problem is. So the finisher will add comfort and clean the edge up more than adding extra sharpness. I think I just had an Ahh Ha moment! A few passes on a finisher and I should be good to go. No improvement, not a finisher. Excellent!

I have been to that thread you mentioned, but I will revisit it again.

You've been a big help!

 

[Gamma]

Thanks for all your help.

You're welcome.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

A 1-6k jump with King stones is very doable, you should be able to shave comfortably off a good 6k King edge, I did it just last week, 800 to 6k King, strop, and shave.

A low mid grit stone, (2-4K) will help by removing the deep 800-1k stria. This is where many new honers have most of their edge problems. If you do not remove all the deep bevel setting stria with the stone that transitions from grinding to polishing, the following higher grit stone, likely will not and each deep stria ends in a micro-chip at the edge.

Using a 2-4k low mid grit stone will remove the deep stria and polish the bevel more efficiently and uniformly, if it is a good quality synthetic stone. But a 6k King will do the same thing with just a few more laps.

Stay on the 6k until your bevels look like the honer’s 4k bevels, in the My Second Try at Honing post. Actually, your 6k bevels should look a little better and more like his 8k bevels.

A shaving edge is made in a progression of finer stones, each stone refines, flattens the bevel with its grit which makes a finer stria pattern. The goal is to make a uniform stria pattern from the back of the bevel to the edge and completely remove the previous stria pattern completely.

The shallower you can make each stria pattern with each finer grit stone the straighter the edge becomes.

A natural finisher refines the edge by micro polishing the bevel to straighten the edge, provided the girt is finer than your pre-finisher, 8k. You cannot polish a shaving edge that does not exist.

It is a process, there are no magic stones.



Here is the 4k bevel from the My Second Try at Honing post.

Post’s 8k bevel and edge, note how straight his edge is.

 

[Saloogie]

A 1-6k jump with King stones is very doable, you should be able to shave comfortably off a good 6k King edge, I did it just last week, 800 to 6k King, strop, and shave.

A low mid grit stone, (2-4K) will help by removing the deep 800-1k stria. This is where many new honers have most of their edge problems. If you do not remove all the deep bevel setting stria with the stone that transitions from grinding to polishing, the following higher grit stone, likely will not and each deep stria ends in a micro-chip at the edge.

Using a 2-4k low mid grit stone will remove the deep stria and polish the bevel more efficiently and uniformly, if it is a good quality synthetic stone. But a 6k King will do the same thing with just a few more laps.

Stay on the 6k until your bevels look like the honer’s 4k bevels, in the My Second Try at Honing post. Actually, your 6k bevels should look a little better and more like his 8k bevels.

A shaving edge is made in a progression of finer stones, each stone refines, flattens the bevel with its grit which makes a finer stria pattern. The goal is to make a uniform stria pattern from the back of the bevel to the edge and completely remove the previous stria pattern completely.

The shallower you can make each stria pattern with each finer grit stone the straighter the edge becomes.

A natural finisher refines the edge by micro polishing the bevel to straighten the edge, provided the girt is finer than your pre-finisher, 8k. You cannot polish a shaving edge that does not exist.

It is a process, there are no magic stones.



Here is the 4k bevel from the My Second Try at Honing post.
View attachment 1958170


Post’s 8k bevel and edge, note how straight his edge is.
View attachment 1958172

I'm gonna try this progression tomorrow. I'll try and shave off the 8K. Even though I got sharp edges off my 8K, I never shaved off of it because I thought I could get an even better edge from my finishing stones. I know that that might not be the case now. So I'll go to my finishing stones and see if I get an improvement. Hopefully I will. I won't overdo the finish stones this time though. A few passes and done.

We shall see!

 

[Koop]

I don't think you need to chase a polished, mirror finished edge. This edge gave me an awesome, comfortable shave tonight.

 

[rhgg2]

I look at my bevels with a strong oblique backlight and rotate until the bevel just catches the light. Seen this way they never look polished, they are covered in scratches, but different scratches depending on the stone. So be aware that mirrored may well mean "mirrored from a particularly propitious angle", and don't worry too much if your working viewing angle does not make your bevels look mirrored at all. What's important, I think, is establishing a consistent way of viewing and a correlation between what you observe and how it shaves.

I do highly recommend shaving off all the different stones you have. It's a great way of finding out what each is really doing.