state of the straight razor market?
- Thread starter The Knize
- Start date
Hopefully you guys realize I'm just messin' with ya.You are such a brat.
But, I do have at least that many razors...
Bill,
Most razors don't get anywhere near your hands and I know you would never put out a razor that didn't give a special shave. I'm not getting at you in any way , but we don't all have a workshop full of fancy tools to correct the rejects that can, I repeat can come out of the factories today. Never mind some of the rubbish that is sold on E Bay.
But I repeat, many Wapi's and some Dovo's are not special and without specialist repair they don't shave well. The repair treatment is not cheap. A rehone is $15 to $30 plus postage and add the cost of the razor on top. Why should some unsuspecting customer have to subject themselves to this type of none sense. The number of razors that get purchased and binned is I suggest quite high. Its OK to discuss these things on a shaving forum with knowledgeable people but in the real world, if it don't work out of the box nowdays, most people chuck it in the bin or return it to the supplier for a refund. Once bitten twice shy, they don't buy a second straight, they buy Gillette or an equivalent because it works first time out of the box.
That's my only point. Poor quality from whatever source or mediocracy will not bring you the new customers who would delight in using one of your razors.
Most razors don't get anywhere near your hands and I know you would never put out a razor that didn't give a special shave. I'm not getting at you in any way , but we don't all have a workshop full of fancy tools to correct the rejects that can, I repeat can come out of the factories today. Never mind some of the rubbish that is sold on E Bay.
But I repeat, many Wapi's and some Dovo's are not special and without specialist repair they don't shave well. The repair treatment is not cheap. A rehone is $15 to $30 plus postage and add the cost of the razor on top. Why should some unsuspecting customer have to subject themselves to this type of none sense. The number of razors that get purchased and binned is I suggest quite high. Its OK to discuss these things on a shaving forum with knowledgeable people but in the real world, if it don't work out of the box nowdays, most people chuck it in the bin or return it to the supplier for a refund. Once bitten twice shy, they don't buy a second straight, they buy Gillette or an equivalent because it works first time out of the box.
That's my only point. Poor quality from whatever source or mediocracy will not bring you the new customers who would delight in using one of your razors.
Isn't that exactly what is shown by my pics of the DAs??? Which started the whole discussion?
You listed it as a drawback for the DAs, but the heel and tip need special attention on any smiling razor. Not just DAs.
Call it scything, or call it rocking, you must change the angle to get the tip and heel.
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OK, so a cutting wheel has a uniform bevel around a severely smiling blade--i.e.-it is completely round!
Here's a side view.
An oblique view,
and a view of the actual conic geometry of how a uniform bevel on a round cutting edge must be formed--the whole thing has to be curved/conic. In other words it will not lay flat on a hone.
Here's a side view.
An oblique view,
and a view of the actual conic geometry of how a uniform bevel on a round cutting edge must be formed--the whole thing has to be curved/conic. In other words it will not lay flat on a hone.
Not quite. Scything and rocking are two different things. Two completely different things. The heel/tip does not require the spine to go anywhere except flat on the stone in a scything motion. Scything is movement that combines lateral and a semi-circular movement going in one direction. (up and down the hone) Rocking is where the spine, on one end or the other, is lifted off of the surface of the hone.Isn't that exactly what is shown by my pics of the DAs??? Which started the whole discussion?
You listed it as a drawback for the DAs, but the heel and tip need special attention on any smiling razor. Not just DAs. This is not true. You'll just have to get one to find out since you still don't believe me. It's ok... I'm getting used to it... Maybe I'll see the revelation from you in a thread about it a year from now...
Call it scything, or call it rocking, you must change the angle to get the tip and heel.
On a smiling blade, the spine remains in contact with the hone from heel to tip. That can't be done on the DA's because a straight spine does not allow a curved cutting edge to be evenly beveled without the adjustments I mentioned.
I see a diagram that just showed up as I was typing this. I'm sorry you are not getting this, I really am. I'm gonna take the blame for not being able to show you why. But I'll try one more time. Let's start with your quote first:
OK... try this. Maybe you'll see it. In your first diagram, visualize the radius point. Throw out either half of the drawing. Now extend the bevel angle of the cutting edge to the radius point. It is quite exaggerated, but you get the idea. The point where the angle of the bevel touches the radius point becomes the edge of the spine. Do it on the bottom half as well. You no longer have a cone and it becomes two triangles. Now just envision the curved spine as a point short of reaching the radius point.
And there you have it...
English...
I apologize for trying to be funny when you made some very valid points. I can't speak for all wapi's... only the batch that I got. Maybe they aren't wapi's, but I do think they are Polish razors. I bought a couple dozen without scales a couple years back. So far they have all been gems.
Maybe the ones with the hallmark are the equivalent of the DA's... I don't know. Guys starting out need to do some research to come up with what will make them happy. There is plenty of info on many forums to help them with obtaining a satisfactory experience.
If I were to give only one piece of advice to any new straight-razor-shaving candidate it would be to learn how to hone/strop effectively. There are many approaches and most of them work. What is important is finding their own way to accomplish it.
I think I'll have to wait for the revelation a year from now....
Seraphim, am I wrong or do you believe that DAs are smiling razors?
If you do believe this, and I'm not just misenterpriting what you're saying, then you should be able to explain how to get any razor with a straight spine to get a smiling cutting edge with out uneven hone wear.
From what I understand (and I haven't been at this very long, admitidly) that is simply not possible.
If those DAs all had a frown, would that be acceptable also? It's the same principle, just polorized IMO.
If you do believe this, and I'm not just misenterpriting what you're saying, then you should be able to explain how to get any razor with a straight spine to get a smiling cutting edge with out uneven hone wear.
From what I understand (and I haven't been at this very long, admitidly) that is simply not possible.
If those DAs all had a frown, would that be acceptable also? It's the same principle, just polorized IMO.
Sorry for butting in to the conversation again, but since I spent the time on the drawing, I might as well. 
The first is half of an edge-on view. The second is from the side.
Note: on a cutting wheel, lines A, B, C, and D are parallel but not coplanar. On a razor, they must be coplanar, and they must also still be parallel if you want the hone wear and bevel to be uniform along the length of the blade.
In order for them to be parallel (and coplanar) on a razor, line A (which is one edge of the spine) has to curve like the rest. Thus the curved spine on razors that are intended to smile.
Granted, in theory a razor with a straight spine and a huge amount of crescent-shaped hone wear would accomplish the same thing. However, you would also have created a really crescent-shaped bevel in the process, changing the "trajectory of the cutting edge", as Bill said.
The first is half of an edge-on view. The second is from the side.
Note: on a cutting wheel, lines A, B, C, and D are parallel but not coplanar. On a razor, they must be coplanar, and they must also still be parallel if you want the hone wear and bevel to be uniform along the length of the blade.
In order for them to be parallel (and coplanar) on a razor, line A (which is one edge of the spine) has to curve like the rest. Thus the curved spine on razors that are intended to smile.
Granted, in theory a razor with a straight spine and a huge amount of crescent-shaped hone wear would accomplish the same thing. However, you would also have created a really crescent-shaped bevel in the process, changing the "trajectory of the cutting edge", as Bill said.
Sorry for butting in to the conversation again, but since I spent the time on the drawing, I might as well.
The first is half of an edge-on view. The second is from the side.
Note: on a cutting wheel, lines A, B, C, and D are parallel but not coplanar. On a razor, they must be coplanar, and they must also still be parallel if you want the hone wear and bevel to be uniform along the length of the blade.
In order for them to be parallel (and coplanar) on a razor, line A (which is one edge of the spine) has to curve like the rest. Thus the curved spine on razors that are intended to smile.
Granted, in theory a razor with a straight spine and a huge amount of crescent-shaped hone wear would accomplish the same thing. However, you would also have created a really crescent-shaped bevel in the process, changing the "trajectory of the cutting edge", as Bill said.
Right on!
Seraphim... does this one help too?
- Thread starter
- #72
I just wanted to again express gratitude for the time and effort and expertise sharing that is going into this thread. Honing and related matters are usually given very quick and cursory treatment in any discussions on-line. I find this indepth discussion fascinating. As if I got to sit in while Tiger Wood talked about just how he approached technical golf shots. I may not be able to follow it all, much less do it all, but wow I like hearing about it!
And please, as far as I am concerned, feel free to let the thread drift into machinery and the like. It is all pretty much of a piece. And it is all "razor porn" as far as I am concerned! Maybe I am that much of a nerd about this stuff, but this is some of the best stuff I have read in one very long time. Thank you, Gentlemen.
And please, as far as I am concerned, feel free to let the thread drift into machinery and the like. It is all pretty much of a piece. And it is all "razor porn" as far as I am concerned! Maybe I am that much of a nerd about this stuff, but this is some of the best stuff I have read in one very long time. Thank you, Gentlemen.
Hold on, that one was close, but it is in 2 dimensions, not three. I'm going to have to go back to my CAD to check out some stuff....
Gosh, this is discussion is bringing back nightmares of high school geometry.
Gosh, this is discussion is bringing back nightmares of high school geometry.
Advanced high school geometry
Very good picture.
The math is that there is no way for the full edge to be on a flat hone at a single moment.
That is because a curved line can belong to a single plane only, and the edge is a single line that already belongs to the plane bisecting the razor.
of course this is compensated by 'scithyng' the razor on the hone, but at every single moment there is only a tiny bit of the razor bevel that is in contact with the hone. over the full stroke that section where the hone contacts the bevel moves throughout the full bevel.
and, of course, depending on how far away the match between the spine and the edge is a scything motion may not be enough and part of the spine has to be lifted in order to ensure contact with the hone of every point of the bevel.
And I just thought I'd post a very simple experiment that should convince everybody that a curved edge cannot lay on a flat hone.
Take a piece of paper, fold it in two - pres firmly to make a crease.
Now open it slightly - the crease is the edge, and the two sides are the bevel.
The edge is perfectly straight and there is no way that you can make it curve without tearing or crumpling the paper. And any tears or crumpling would make the bevel not be a perfectly flat surface so it cannot lay in a full contact of a flat hone.
This is what Seraphim's original pictures with planes are showing. Hope this helps.
Take a piece of paper, fold it in two - pres firmly to make a crease.
Now open it slightly - the crease is the edge, and the two sides are the bevel.
The edge is perfectly straight and there is no way that you can make it curve without tearing or crumpling the paper. And any tears or crumpling would make the bevel not be a perfectly flat surface so it cannot lay in a full contact of a flat hone.
This is what Seraphim's original pictures with planes are showing. Hope this helps.
So my intuition (rather than my brain) was right
Not the first time I've woken up with the feeling that I did something wrong the night before.
1. If a blade lies flat on a hone, that side of the blade is a plane.
1. If a blade lies flat on a hone, that side of the blade is a plane.
2. If you flip it over and the other side lies flat, that side is also a plane.
3. Two planes can't meet at a curve.
The only conclusion: if you do have a smiling edge, the two sides can't be perfect planes, so the blade has to be rocked at least a little in order to hone the whole edge.
No wonder safety razor's became so popular.
