How to get my straights as sharp as a Feather AC?

Hi all,

Last night my Feather AC arrived so I loaded it up this morning for a try.

WOW!!!!

For the first time a str8 shave felt like the most comfortable DE shave, just wiping the lather off... no pulling at all, no scraping, NO discomfort!!! It might even have been more comfortable as I had much more control over blade angle. Just a fantastic out-of-this-world shave!!

I have two other straights that I have been shaving with for about 2 months. One is a 5/8 Imperial, the other a new T.I. 5/8 Super Gnome. The Imperial came shave ready from a member here, I honed the T.I. myself. Both are about equal in comfort, the T.I. is bit bit smoother. I had a Revisor that I sent to Lynn for honing but it was not as smooth on my face as my other two so I sold it. I have a T.I. P.T.L.E on the way from a member here as well.

I would just shave with the Feather but it really doesn't have any soul or character. I also don't like being beholden to a blade manufacturer. You also loose all the tradition and ritual of using a straight, no honing, no stroping, no history to the blade...

So the big question is: How can I get my straights to shave like a Feather? What is it that makes the feather so smooth? Is is sharpness? Blade/edge geometry? Blade coatings? Is it even possible to get a regular straight to this level?

My honing equipment consists of a complete set of Spyderco hones, a hand american base, one leather plate for it loaded with CrO, one glass plate for it with nothing on it yet(I was planning on trying some of the 3M micro abrasive papers on it) and a nice hanging strop from Tony. I also have a bunch of Japanese water stones that I have used for years on my woodworking tools but they are all fairly low grit.

Any ideas about what I can do to get my straights to this level? I'm open to all suggestions!!

Thanks,
Joe

I've done this only a half dozen times, and on each occasion I finished on Chromium Oxide. It is my humble opinion, however, that straights that sharp are not always a good thing. For one, they never keep their feather sharp edge long (I give them about 5-6 shaves before they feel normal again). Furthermore, straights need not be this sharp to provide a close and comfortable shave. Also, I believe not every edge can be made this sharp. If the steel is too hard or too soft you'll hit a brickwall with regards to sharpness before they are feather sharp.

Razors I remeber having rendered this sharp:
TI Spartacus 5/8
Vintage Japanese straight (Maker Unknown)
Taylor Eye Witness 1/4 hollow (recently sold and I regret it)
Filarmonica #13 (for a client)
Kiebitz 4/8

So, in summary, if the steel is good and your honing skills/intuition are tuned in right, you can do it with what you have. Use your spyderco hones up to the ultrafine, then use the CrO paste (Assuming it's in the 0.5 micron range)

Supposedly you need a Shapton 30K hone (about $300, iirc), at least according to people with more experience with straights, Feathers, and some hones than yours truly - such as Michael Parker and Dr. Chris Moss

Also - Chromium oxide will generally give more comfort, but may round the bevel and the edge will not last as long, as was already noted.

I also agree that some razors have greater potential than others (or so it seems to me) and may get a sharper and longer-lasting edge than others

Disclaimer: I have never used a Feather!

Cheers
Ivo

izlat said:

Supposedly you need a Shapton 30K hone (about $300, iirc), at least according to people with more experience with straights, Feathers, and some hones than yours truly - such as Michael Parker and Dr. Chris Moss

Also - Chromium oxide will generally give more comfort, but may round the bevel and the edge will not last as long, as was already noted.

I also agree that some razors have greater potential than others (or so it seems to me) and may get a sharper and longer-lasting edge than others

Disclaimer: I have never used a Feather!

Cheers
Ivo

Click to expand...

Yikes! $300 for one hone!

3M makes a 0.3 micron film. I think that is around 18,000 grit. I might give that a try. I'll hone my Super Gnome this weekend on my Spyderco's and CrO. I'll take a bunch of micrographs and post them.

Have any of our resident honemeisters gotten a blade to "Feather sharp"?

Joe

FloppyShoes said:

I've done this only a half dozen times, and on each occasion I finished on Chromium Oxide. It is my humble opinion, however, that straights that sharp are not always a good thing. For one, they never keep their feather sharp edge long (I give them about 5-6 shaves before they feel normal again). Furthermore, straights need not be this sharp to provide a close and comfortable shave. Also, I believe not every edge can be made this sharp. If the steel is too hard or too soft you'll hit a brickwall with regards to sharpness before they are feather sharp.

Razors I remeber having rendered this sharp:
TI Spartacus 5/8
Vintage Japanese straight (Maker Unknown)
Taylor Eye Witness 1/4 hollow (recently sold and I regret it)
Filarmonica #13 (for a client)
Kiebitz 4/8
So, in summary, if the steel is good and your honing skills/intuition are tuned in right, you can do it with what you have. Use your spyderco hones up to the ultrafine, then use the CrO paste (Assuming it's in the 0.5 micron range)

Click to expand...

I used my Feather AC this morning.I can get a very close shave with it but I tend to get a lot of nicks. On the other hand the str8s I use give me a very close shave and don't tend to nick. They may not be as sharp as the Feather but I get a better shave.
I use a Norton 4k/8k and a Chinese 12k.

DaveS

Michael Parker is a member here...

sure - not cheap but still cheaper than the Japanese hones

Cheers
Ivo

Daves said:

I used my Feather AC this morning.I can get a very close shave with it but I tend to get a lot of nicks. On the other hand the str8s I use give me a very close shave and don't tend to nick. They may not be as sharp as the Feather but I get a better shave.
I use a Norton 4k/8k and a Chinese 12k.

DaveS

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I got zero nicks and irritation with the Feather AC. I definitely got a much better shave from the Feather. I'd just like to be able to make my real straights shave like that.

Joe

FloppyShoes said:

I've done this only a half dozen times, and on each occasion I finished on Chromium Oxide.

Click to expand...

There is a webpage that was linked somewhere in another thread, where someone finished a razor on each of a dozen or so different hones, and pictures of the edge under a microscope, with a commercial disposable blade as a sort of control (don't remember if it was a DE, AC, Gem, or what). The only edge that was as perfectly smooth and straight under the magnification as the disposable blade was the one finish on CrO2. Interesting, I thought....

-Mo

I don't like edges that unforgiving.... however if you want an edge that brutal you'll need 2 things.... a lot of time, and a lot of money. Having the skill to hone to that degree of perfection will take at LEAST a year, and you'll have to spend at LEAST $750 in equipment.

If I want to make a blade absurdly (way too) sharp I hone it to a HHT passing stage with the 3 micron (8K) DMT plate, move to the chinese 12K, move to the Y/G Vintage Escher, move to the 16K Shapton, move to the 30K Shapton, then finish with some VERY light stropping on .25 micron diamond paste - on balsa - the balsa gives me a finer edge than leather in my experience.

The resulting edge is far too sharp for comfort. While on a feather it's still too sharp in my opinion, feathers are designed for an edge that sharp - in that the blade isn't as long, different grip/weighting, etc. With that edge on a 3 inch straight razor blade without the heft/weight of the feathers holder/head it requires you add just a TOUCH of pressure (I mean literally a FEATHER touch) and if you don't get it JUST right, it wreaks havoc on your face.

Double Yikes!!

I am certainly willing to spend the time becoming better at honing. I'm patient so if it takes a year, so be it. I can invest more into equipment but slowly.

Any advice on using my current equipment to get a more comfortable edge? The feather was plenty comfortable and forgiving for me so I don't really consider it brutal or too sharp. Now I have only had one shave with it so perhaps I just got lucky and tomorrow it will reach up and bite me.

Your point about the differences in blade length/heft, etc is well taken. That is a large variable.

I will post a new thread tomorrow about my honing technique with micrographs. Hopefully that will help in my quest. How sharp do you think I could get a blade with good technique and the equipment I have?

Thanks,
Joe

JoePerri said:

Double Yikes!!

I am certainly willing to spend the time becoming better at honing. I'm patient so if it takes a year, so be it. I can invest more into equipment but slowly.

Any advice on using my current equipment to get a more comfortable edge? The feather was plenty comfortable and forgiving for me so I don't really consider it brutal or too sharp. Now I have only had one shave with it so perhaps I just got lucky and tomorrow it will reach up and bite me.

Your point about the differences in blade length/heft, etc is well taken. That is a large variable.

I will post a new thread tomorrow about my honing technique with micrographs. Hopefully that will help in my quest. How sharp do you think I could get a blade with good technique and the equipment I have?

Thanks,
Joe

Click to expand...

Joe,
The biggest variable with Feathers is the blades. Some are AMAZING and a few times i've thought about switching to them as my daily shaver - however, others are just plain awful and will tear your face up. At least, that has been my experience. For me, I couldn't handle the inconsistencies.

If you have the set of Spyderco's (lapped) then you should be able to get a really, really fine edge on a razor, especially finished with green chrome. Getting good results with the Spyderco's will just take a lot of time/patience and experience. Unfortunately honing is like being a really fast runner, or a really good golfer.... the only advice one can truly give is practice, practice, practice.

JoePerri said:

The feather was plenty comfortable and forgiving for me so I don't really consider it brutal or too sharp. Now I have only had one shave with it so perhaps I just got lucky and tomorrow it will reach up and bite me.

Click to expand...

The problems with the feather are cumulative thinning of the skin over a period of days, and inconsistent blade quality. Getting a great first shave with it is easy, it's getting a great fifth shave with it that gets tricky. Corking the blades helps, but then you've knocked it back into mortal straight territory.

The imperial is probably capable of feather levels of sharpness. I've never owned a super gnome so I can't comment about it.

joel said:

...paste - on balsa - the balsa gives me a finer edge than leather in my experience.

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While my lead up is a little different from that of Joel I could not agree more about using a flat balsa or otherwise stiff pasted strop. In the finer grits, when trying to refine an already sharp edge off hones, flatness is crucial.

I can't wait to see those micrographs, that sciency jazz is awsome. I sometimes wonder what an edge that felt "right" on the hone actually looks like under a microscope.

The feather is a razor blade and its manufactured. I think if you tried through honing to get a straight that sharp #1 its not required to get a BBS shave and the edge would be so fragile it wouldn't last and it would be very harsh. personally I think its a crazy idea. Honing a straight is a balancing act between getting it to shave ideally and making it so the edge is too fragile, chips and doesn't last very long.

It may indeed be fragile, that is something we are going to find out. While it may be "crazy" and "very harsh" to you, please note that I have already shaved with a Feather and do not find it all harsh, not even a little bit. Many others use a Feather AC everyday and love them as well. In fact I find it to be very, very smooth and comfortable. So if you have any ideas about how to get there I'd love to hear them.

Joe

One thing you really need to consider though is, as pointed, edge longevity. People throw away feathers after some time, no? So I can easily imagine that such an edge on a straight would need constant maintenance. After all, the feather has Ti and what not coatings to protect the fragile edge and make it last longer, as well as lubricants, teflon, etc. obviously, your straight edge doesn't have these.

All I can say is: Good luck! The wisdom is in the thread - whatever the starting point, you need 12k-15K and then 30K hones.

Cheers
Ivo

joel said:

Joe,
The biggest variable with Feathers is the blades. Some are AMAZING and a few times i've thought about switching to them as my daily shaver - however, others are just plain awful and will tear your face up. At least, that has been my experience. For me, I couldn't handle the inconsistencies.

If you have the set of Spyderco's (lapped) then you should be able to get a really, really fine edge on a razor, especially finished with green chrome. Getting good results with the Spyderco's will just take a lot of time/patience and experience. Unfortunately honing is like being a really fast runner, or a really good golfer.... the only advice one can truly give is practice, practice, practice.

Click to expand...

I've got about 700 shaves with the Feather AC, the vast majority with Pro Super blades, and I've yet to find any blade I would think of as a bummer. Maybe you've hit upon a bad batch or two, but I suspect plenty of people are done in by the huge difference between a blade that's seen a few shaves and a brand new blade. It takes all of about 10 seconds to go from a blade at its dullest to a vorpal blade at peak sharpness, and you really have to pay attention to the blade changes.

Of course, even at 700 blades, I'm still talking about only 5 packs of blades, so I haven't seen a helluvalot of blades, but I suspect my personal sample is as large as any Feather AC user's out there.

You can get a good straight that sharp using much less expensive materials... but as said the edge is very delicate, and it only takes an instant to mess up while honing and have a major set back.
for a close to feather sharp but comfortable and lasting edge on a straight, I will hone a razor (usually one with tougher steel like a Wade & Butcher) using a single thickness of electrical tape, I will set the bevel on a norton 4k, followed by the usual progression through 8K and my 12k kitayama hone till it pops hairs effortlessly. then add 2 more pieces of electrical tape and 5 laps with absolutely no pressure on the 12k.
now comes the tricky part... leaving the tape on, and still applying no pressure strop on 0.5 micron chromium oxide. You have to look at the blade frequently under magnification at this point to make sure you haven't over honed... Once your bevel is polished smooth usually 10-15 laps of 0.5 give it 5-10 laps on 0.25 diamond paste. remove the tape, and strop on plain leather, and if you've done it right it will provide a smooth shave with a very close to feather sharp edge, and will still be quite forgiving.


now, having said that... unless you're dealing with a superb shaver already, it usually isn't worth all the extra effort. and the edge will need rehoning more often to keep it there. I only have 1 razor that holds up well, and is in my opinion worth this effort... it's a Henkels 8/8, and my best shaver bar none.

Mike_ratliff said:

You can get a good straight that sharp using much less expensive materials... but as said the edge is very delicate, and it only takes an instant to mess up while honing and have a major set back.
for a close to feather sharp but comfortable and lasting edge on a straight, I will hone a razor (usually one with tougher steel like a Wade & Butcher) using a single thickness of electrical tape, I will set the bevel on a norton 4k, followed by the usual progression through 8K and my 12k kitayama hone till it pops hairs effortlessly. then add 2 more pieces of electrical tape and 5 laps with absolutely no pressure on the 12k.
now comes the tricky part... leaving the tape on, and still applying no pressure strop on 0.5 micron chromium oxide. You have to look at the blade frequently under magnification at this point to make sure you haven't over honed... Once your bevel is polished smooth usually 10-15 laps of 0.5 give it 5-10 laps on 0.25 diamond paste. remove the tape, and strop on plain leather, and if you've done it right it will provide a smooth shave with a very close to feather sharp edge, and will still be quite forgiving.


now, having said that... unless you're dealing with a superb shaver already, it usually isn't worth all the extra effort. and the edge will need rehoning more often to keep it there. I only have 1 razor that holds up well, and is in my opinion worth this effort... it's a Henkels 8/8, and my best shaver bar none.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you read Mr. Zowada's double-bevel honing method

heavydutysg135 said:

It sounds like you read Mr. Zowada's double-bevel honing method

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darn tootin!, It works very well... although it's not a method of honing I would recommend for a beginner.