Stainless vs. Carbon Steel

[snakyjake]

Rust
I've read the numerous posts about carbon steel having a higher propensity to rust. But I wonder if the rust affects actual performance or just cosmetic? I would figure that stropping the blade before shaving would remove the rust. For the price difference, I can handle the cheaper carbon steel cosmetic issues.

Honing
Also, how much more effort is it to hone a stainless steel blade?
Is honing stainless easy to learn? Or more of an experienced/advanced skill?
How much does it typically cost to have a knife shop hone?

Performance
I'm considering the lowest end Dovo's in stainless and carbon. Same with Thiers and Art of Shaving. And considering Henkels carbon and new stainless. Therefore the variables for performance are: manufacturer, price, metal. Are there any reviews that rank these razors? If there's a performance difference between carbon and stainless, that will at least narrow my choices in half. Are the rest of the variables at matter of personal taste?


Thanks,
Jake

[Alacrity59]

I'm no expert but I have had one of each for two years now and have been shaving with only a straight for the last 3 months. The carbon steel one takes an edge far more quickly . . . it my case for two reasons 1) it is carbon steel 2) it is a full hollow. Rust on the carbon steel has not been an issue at all, I wipe it off with a towel and leave it partially open to dry (no kids around). The carbon steel does develop a black tarnish that kinda bothers me so I polish it off . . . apparently some people don't mind it. I don't think the stainless takes more skill but more patience. My stainless one is a smile so it does take a little more skill. Both of my straights are 80 to 100 years old . . . so I guess I can conclude they last well given good treatment.

[Alacrity59]

A tad more.

You might consider buying a shave ready straight from the buy/sell/trade (BST) forum here (when you qualify from being around and participating in discussions a bit) or from one of the many vendors you will see mentioned. There is a wiki here that has a list of people who will hone a razor for you. I think with postage and all in a honing is below $25 . . . (depends on packaging you use and insurance etc. and some do charge more than others)

Carbon steel is what the majority of straights are made from. Do use the vendors here, check the wiki and messages here to find the discount codes . . . check out the BST for good deals . . have fun.

Welcome to B&B

[Seraphim]

It is my personal opinion (so take that for what it's worth...) that stainless is no more difficult to hone than carbon razors.

What I do think often happens is that certain hones have a more difficult time honing stainless over carbon.

I have always used diamond hones, and aluminum oxide lapping films to hone both carbon and stainless razors, and it whips through either with no problems whatsover.

As far as performance goes: Dovo stainless razors have always been nice and smooth for me. The new Friodurs are a bit touchier, and can tend towards feeling a bit harsh. Thiers does not offer a stainless razor, only a carbon razor with stainless scales.

Carbon steel rusting can indeed be an issue if one is not careful. With proper care (i.e.- dry it off immediately after shaving, and make sure that it is dry) there should be no problems. But any laxity in care ("Meh...I'll dry off that razor after I finish looking at my beautiful face in the mirror and applying my aftershave de jour, etc...") can result in corrosion faster than you can imagine. This can range from water stains withing 15 minutes, to actual corrosion overnight.

Carbon can take a slightly more refined edge, and many feel that it is also a smoother feel. I tend to agree, but the differences are usually pretty slight.

As a newbie I liked having stainless, as it was one less thing to worry about.

Soon enough you'll find that you will NEED at least one of each, just so you can compare....

[mainaman]

In my opinion, no difference at all.

[Ru4scuba?]

How funny, I was researching this very thing on BB again today as I contemplate buying a new razor from one of the various vendors vs. a vintage. When I ready Lynn Abrams said there was no difference....my mind was made up (who cares? and the price of stainless is higher so.....kinda seals the deal IMHO).

[mparker762]

My first razor was a Sheffield and my second was a Friodur, and I thought the Friodur was definitely harder to hone, however my hardest razors to hone are all carbon steel - my Friodurs are comparable in honing difficulty to most TI's and better Solingens.

Corrosion definitely affects the edge and not just cosmetics. There's a reason the commercial razor companies all went to stainless steel for their cartridge and DE blades, even though stainless is much more expensive and harder and more expensive to work, and it's not because they were worried about how pretty their blades stayed inside a Fatboy/Trac II/Mach III etc.

[snakyjake]

Originally Posted by mparker762

Corrosion definitely affects the edge and not just cosmetics. There's a reason the commercial razor companies all went to stainless steel for their cartridge and DE blades, even though stainless is much more expensive and harder and more expensive to work, and it's not because they were worried about how pretty their blades stayed inside a Fatboy/Trac II/Mach III etc.

A difference between DE and a straight is that a straight can be stropped and cleaned up.

That's why I'm wondering if stropping the blade removes the rust and the blade is as clean as a stainless?

[mparker762]

Originally Posted by snakyjake

That's why I'm wondering if stropping the blade removes the rust and the blade is as clean as a stainless?

Stropping will remove the rust, but the corrosion still damages the steel. There's an article on modern mechanix from 1920 that has photos of a new razor blade, a used (and corroded) edge, and a used and stropped edge, at 3000x magnification (optical scope, not an electron scope). The stropped edge is better than the unstropped one but still nowhere as good as the fresh one. Eventually the corrosion wins out and you'll have to rehone - you can see defects with a low-power microscope or loupe. Stainless will prolong this day, though I'm not sure by how much, because stainless is generally softer than high carbon steel and so is more susceptible to mechanical wear. BTW Linen seems critical for long edge life; the guys on SRP that can keep a razor going for a year all use the linen side heavily. I can keep a HCS razor going for 4-5 months with just stropping on linen and leather; one of these days I'll see how long a Friodur will go. Unfortunately this sort of experiment is extremely boring after the first month or two, so I probably won't get around to it any time soon.

DE blades can also be stropped BTW. There are lots of DE stroppers on ebay, or you can use the inside of a glass.

[Seraphim]

Stainless is softer on the Rockwell scale but is more wear resistant. I know by my dremeling, that grinding stainless is much slower going than HCS.

I have some stainless razors that are probably from the '20s, and the stainless (actually called Rust-Less) is really nice and smooth shaving.

[Seraphim]

FWIW, I found these pics in my archives.

It's a Dovo Renaissance at 500x. Freshly honed, and after ~20 shaves or so, leather only stropping.

[Ru4scuba?]

Seraphim,

What does a carbon blade look like after 20 shaves?

[snakyjake]

Would the hardness of the steel make any difference? Perhaps harder steel makes it harder to rust/corrode?

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Ru4scuba?

Seraphim,

What does a carbon blade look like after 20 shaves?

I haven't completed universal testing of all blades and combinations.








Yet.

And that 20 shave test was from way back when I had only three razors, and used them for a week at a time. Now with more razors, each gets used less, before I itch to use a different one.....

[Ru4scuba?]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I haven't completed universal testing of all blades and combinations.








Yet.

And that 20 shave test was from way back when I had only three razors, and used them for a week at a time. Now with more razors, each gets used less, before I itch to use a different one.....

Gotcha...and I've just found the first and only negative to having a str8 rotation....you're screwing up the analysis of blade strength because you dont want to use a single blade for 20 shaves!!!

[ouch]

I've found that whenever I'm in a rush and don't have the time to read all of the posts, simply fast forwarding to mparker's entries covers 99-100% of the necessary info.

[mparker762]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Stainless is softer on the Rockwell scale but is more wear resistant. I know by my dremeling, that grinding stainless is much slower going than HCS.

It's more wear resistant because of the carbides, which is one reason stainless hones as though it's harder than it actually is. But I'm not sure how much carbide granules help improve wear resistance at the microscopic level we need for comfortable shaving - I could easily see the carbide granules being intact but the steel edge they're embedded in being worn and dull. I suspect this is why many guys like to finish stainless razors on pastes - a hard hone would have to wear down the carbide granules embedded in the bevel in order to sharpen the rest of the edge, whereas the pasted leather or balsa will sharpen the edge around the carbide. Also, carbides tend to reduce the structural strength of the steel, making it more likely to fracture and chip at the edge. I wonder if this is one reason that Gillette's patents mention that stainless takes its sharpest edge at a 28 degree honing angle.

[riooso]

IMHO. Stainless will not take as good an edge as High Carbon Steel razor. I have only tried about 6 different models of stainless razors..none..I repeat..none of them shaved like a well honed HCS razor. They are ok and I know that people like them but, for me no.


Take Care,
Richard

[jinenjo]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Carbon can take a slightly more refined edge, and many feel that it is also a smoother feel. I tend to agree, but the differences are usually pretty slight.

I was going to start a new thread, but figured this was good enough a place as any to broach this subject that's been on my mind for a few weeks now.

Recently I got my first stainless, a beautiful Dovo MoP INOX, that came to me honed by a well known user here or there. At any rate, I was quite taken by how differently is shaved and felt on my face, not to mention the weight of it (much heavier). I have been shaving with a different Dovo carbon for over a year, and also recently acquired a Goldedge restored and honed by Maximilian (that continues to be a serious beast).

At first I thought it wasn't honed properly so I did several passes on a four-sided pasted (including a Crox .5). It may have improved slightly, but I'm beginning to think the feel that I was initially--and continually am--struck by simply is in the nature of stainless straight edges. I've also noticed that the INOX is much more forgiving, whereas the DD will nick me good if I make even the smallest of wrong moves.

To reference the above quote, I may not say the shaves between carbon and stainless are different in smoothness--sort of, yet there's something else--but that the carbon is lighter (in feel) or more keen, whereas the stainless is heavier and feels less refined as it shaves. These are both hollow ground, by the way.

Any comments, observations, advice?

Salud,
Lear

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by jinenjo

I was going to start a new thread, but figured this was good enough a place as any to broach this subject that's been on my mind for a few weeks now.

Recently I got my first stainless, a beautiful Dovo MoP INOX, that came to me honed by a well known user here or there. At any rate, I was quite taken by how differently is shaved and felt on my face, not to mention the weight of it (much heavier). I have been shaving with a different Dovo carbon for over a year, and also recently acquired a Goldedge restored and honed by Maximilian (that continues to be a serious beast).

At first I thought it wasn't honed properly so I did several passes on a four-sided pasted (including a Crox .5). It may have improved slightly, but I'm beginning to think the feel that I was initially--and continually am--struck by simply is in the nature of stainless straight edges. I've also noticed that the INOX is much more forgiving, whereas the DD will nick me good if I make even the smallest of wrong moves.

To reference the above quote, I may not say the shaves between carbon and stainless are different in smoothness--sort of, yet there's something else--but that the carbon is lighter (in feel) or more keen, whereas the stainless is heavier and feels less refined as it shaves. These are both hollow ground, by the way.

Any comments, observations, advice?

Salud,
Lear

Is it the razor's blade that feels heavy, or is it those big honkin' MOP scales? Dovo scales are not delicately crafted, they tend to be large and boxy.

In the case of the MOP, they also happen to be quite beautiful