New Dovo's - POS'? - Page 6

BeBerlin · #**101** 11-06-2009, 05:37 PM

English, you do realise that based on the pictures I posted and gugi's small reminder of the quality of some of the B&B TIs, you entire post would have the exact same truth value if your replaced "Dovo" with "Thiers Issard"?

Except, of course, for this remark: "BeBerlin you are talking about DOVO as if they are a world class manufacturing organisation and by chatting with your collegues in Germany and all agreeing you all love DOVO, you really are missing the point and putting your head in the sand." 1) I did not "chat with collegues", but posted the same question that was put in this thread, namely if new Dovos are junk, in the German forum. Run the thread through google translate, and you'll be presented with a not-so-favourable view of how the original poster handled the situation. 2) I am neither missing the point, nor am I putting my head in the sand. Faulty razors have been delivered, and Craig has kindly delivered visual proof of that. Beyond that the situation is as it always was: People make mistakes. Dovo, just for the record, do seal their razor boxes. I am at a complete loss as to what else it would need to prove that a razor was not touched by a third party.

And if you allow me a personal remark: Dovo have been in business for more than 100 years. They apperently produce something like 1,200 pairs of scissors, 900 pincers, and 150 razors. Each day. Do you honestly believe that if their QC was anywhere near as bad as you would have this forum believe it to be, they would still be in business?

Barbarian · #**102** 11-06-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

... Would you mind letting us know where you got it?...

Who is 'us?'

This sure sounds like some customer service rep to me.

richmondesi · #**103** 11-06-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbarian

Who is 'us?'

This sure sounds like some customer service rep to me.

I'm assuming he means you, him, everyone else reading this thread, and me to be "us"... Am I missing something?

That question has been asked a couple of times if I'm not mistaken, BTW. I think it's valid.

English · #**104** 11-07-2009, 04:51 AM

Hello Richard,

Let me explain in more detail.

I think the customer should break the seal and the vendor should handle the complaint.
For example.......
If there is an obvious fault, the vendor should offer an immediate refund and compensate the customer for their inconvenience. As a secondary consideration, he might offer a replacement if that will satisfy the customer.
If the razor is obviously not shave ready, the vendor should offer to rehone it on the spot and for free. If he can not do this, well to be frank he shouldn't be selling straight razors.
Finally if the vendor thinks the customer has caused the problems, he should handle that issue as well and stand by his judgement.

Let me give you some examples of what could happen to the razor if the seal is broken by the vendor, prior to sale.

It might be honed badly or carelessly and even sctratched.
Attempts might be made by the vendor to correct factory faults.
The pins might be retightened or even overtightemed or bent.
The razor might be put on display under bright lights or in a shop window. The result will very likely be warped scales dried up oil and a rust coated useless edge.
The razor may be handled by potential customers who touch the edge or put acidy finger deposits on the blade.
Need I go on................

In my opinion "brand new" razors should not be touched by anyone except the final customer once they leave the factory.

Now if the razor is being sold like motorcars as a demonstartion model with a low mileage, then the price and other considerations all change.

BeBerlin · #**105** 11-07-2009, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

Let me give you some examples of what could happen to the razor if the seal is broken by the vendor, prior to sale.

I just did a quick survey. All major vendors offer honing as an option, ie it is not mandatory. Does that not mean that if you order the razor without honing, it will come with seal still intact? Certainly if you ask for it, no? Which brings the discussion back to the crucial point of who the vendor was, because he either did the damage himself, of had a QC so shoddy that he overlooked the alleged major damage. Either way, the vendor is responsible for fixing the problem.

That said, I have yet to find a factory edge that I like. Granted, my standards may be a tad high, but I have always ordered my new (or NOS) razors pre-honed, because people like Lynn or the guys at my local shop are light years ahead of me when it comes to honing, which means I would have to ship the razor back to them, anyhow. Catch 22, if you ask me. Oh, and of course German customer protection law will let me hold the vendor liable. What is the legal situation in the US, by the way? I tried to find out, but it seems a little less stringent than in Germany (or, rather, Europe, where several regulations were passed recently to protect shoppers and online shoppers in particular).

English · #**106** 11-07-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

I just did a quick survey. All major vendors offer honing as an option, ie it is not mandatory. Does that not mean that if you order the razor without honing, it will come with seal still intact? Certainly if you ask for it, no? Which brings the discussion back to the crucial point of who the vendor was, because he either did the damage himself, of had a QC so shoddy that he overlooked the alleged major damage. Either way, the vendor is responsible for fixing the problem.

That said, I have yet to find a factory edge that I like. Granted, my standards may be a tad high, but I have always ordered my new (or NOS) razors pre-honed, because people like Lynn or the guys at my local shop are light years ahead of me when it comes to honing, which means I would have to ship the razor back to them, anyhow. Catch 22, if you ask me. Oh, and of course German customer protection law will let me hold the vendor liable. What is the legal situation in the US, by the way? I tried to find out, but it seems a little less stringent than in Germany (or, rather, Europe, where several regulations were passed recently to protect shoppers and online shoppers in particular).

WRONG. Try doing a slow survey. All vendors do not offer honing services and some vendors refuse to hone on the basis that it has been done by the factory.

Anyway, I think you are now getting confused between selling razors and selling honing services.

Clearly from some of the posts above and many other post I have read, you can not rely on vendors who hone to always spot quality control issues. That is my point. If the seal has been broken before you buy the razor, DOVO will have lost all control, because it can not apportion blame. Nobody will know who did what. But the customer will put the blame down to DOVO quality control as a few have done above.

thunderball · #**107** 11-07-2009, 05:53 AM

This thread is awesome...and I don't even own a straight (yet). Gentlemen discussing something with a healthy balance of passion, opinion, personal experience, and fact...gotta love it. It's all making me want to buy a straight...

As you were!

English · #**108** 11-07-2009, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

English, you do realise that based on the pictures I posted and gugi's small reminder of the quality of some of the B&B TIs, you entire post would have the exact same truth value if your replaced "Dovo" with "Thiers Issard"?

I have never owned a Thiers Issard. Clearly they also have quality control issues and I understand from the forums that they are addressing them. But yes, if they don't seal the boxes, they are creating their own problems much like DOVO. But this thread is about DOVO quality and we really should stick to that issue and not try to dilute the thread with red herrings.

Except, of course, for this remark: "BeBerlin you are talking about DOVO as if they are a world class manufacturing organisation and by chatting with your collegues in Germany and all agreeing you all love DOVO, you really are missing the point and putting your head in the sand." 1) I did not "chat with collegues", but posted the same question that was put in this thread, namely if new Dovos are junk, in the German forum. Run the thread through google translate, and you'll be presented with a not-so-favourable view of how the original poster handled the situation. 2) I am neither missing the point, nor am I putting my head in the sand. Faulty razors have been delivered, and Craig has kindly delivered visual proof of that. Beyond that the situation is as it always was: People make mistakes. Dovo, just for the record, do seal their razor boxes. I am at a complete loss as to what else it would need to prove that a razor was not touched by a third party.

I would read the thread but I have no idea were to find it. The point I am making is they need to instruct there vendors to not break the seal and they need to tell the customers to not buy the razor if the seal is broken. Actually if they put them in a blister pack, the whole point may become a bit more obvious to everybody.

And if you allow me a personal remark: Dovo have been in business for more than 100 years. They apperently produce something like 1,200 pairs of scissors, 900 pincers, and 150 razors. Each day. Do you honestly believe that if their QC was anywhere near as bad as you would have this forum believe it to be, they would still be in business?

I have a superb DOVO manicure set. It's gold plated and in a leather case. But we are talking about the 150 razors they produce every day. You say the factory has got its quality control to a high standard and with the odd exception of forgiveable human error, you can not see what else thay can do. I have tried to highlight the fact that if the seal has been broken before the customer opens the box, it really doesn't matter what they did at the factory.

BeBerlin · #**109** 11-07-2009, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

WRONG.

Not at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

Try doing a slow survey. All vendors do not offer honing services and some vendors refuse to hone on the basis that it has been done by the factory.

I never said "all" vendors, I said major vendors. But since you are again challenging my credibility - I would have thought you above such cheap rhetoric - here is the proof:

All offer honing services, all are optional (you have to specifically ask in some cases).

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

Anyway, I think you are now getting confused between selling razors and selling honing services.

What makes you say that? Case in point was whether retailers should inspect their products before delivery. It seems to be safe to assume that most razors come with a factory edge that neither of us would call shave ready. It is therefore doubly reasonable to take the honing option, because a) it will give the retailer the chance to do a last quality check, and b) will provide you with an edge that actually works. If you do not need such, that is fine. But beginners typically do. Discouraging them from taking that option seems rather counter productive to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

Clearly from some of the posts above and many other post I have read, you can not rely on vendors who hone to always spot quality control issues. That is my point. If the seal has been broken before you buy the razor, DOVO will have lost all control, because it can not apportion blame. Nobody will know who did what. But the customer will put the blame down to DOVO quality control as a few have done above.

I beg to differ. Legally, the contract is made between you (Buyer) and the retailer (Seller). Not between the Buyer and Dovo.

Since you're from England, you probably know http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/...e/index_en.htm. As far as I can tell this puts you as a buyer in a perfect position. Which is why I asked what the legal situation in the US is. From what I understand, Joel should not have had any problem whatsoever to demand a full refund. If I had received a razor in the condition described by him, I would most certainly have done that.

As far as Dovo production quality is concerned, all I can offer again is what I have heard in the German forums (no complaints except that you can get better value for money from TI or Wacker (who, incidentally, are considered to have much worse QC problems than Dovo in Germany), and from the hundreds of razors I have seen in my local shop.

Last, I do not believe Dovo would intentionally ship faulty products to the US (which must be their second biggest market outside the EU), but an old Dovo employee once told me that the Dubl Ducks produced by them (Dovo owned the Bresnick brand for some time) were ground by apprentices...

BeBerlin · #**110** 11-07-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

I have a superb DOVO manicure set. It's gold plated and in a leather case. But we are talking about the 150 razors they produce every day.

Come to think of it, that figure may be a bit off. I wonder if whoever translated the German text confused straight razors ("Rasiermesser") with DE razors ("Rasierer"). Whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

You say the factory has got its quality control to a high standard and with the odd exception of forgiveable human error, you can not see what else thay can do.

That's what I was told by two retailers. Quality control has risen sharply approximately three years ago, no problems since. There is always room for improvement, and I wonder why Dovo are not ISO 9001 accredited. Not being a razor maker, I cannot comment on how big the room for improvement is, obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

I have tried to highlight the fact that if the seal has been broken before the customer opens the box, it really doesn't matter what they did at the factory.

From a legal perspective, that point is moot for the both of us (and, probably, buyers in the US). You buy from The Invisible Edge, problems are theirs. It really is that simple, thanks to the EU e-commerce directive, and EU consumer protection laws. I think it would be helpful if someone with a US legal background could comment on the situation over there.

Regards,
Robin

Macion grey · #**111** 11-07-2009, 07:21 AM

This is the thread that doesn't end, yes it goes on and on my friends.

I foresee that it will be difficult for a happy conclusion to this thread.

richmondesi · #**112** 11-07-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macion grey

This is the thread that doesn't end, yes it goes on and on my friends.

I foresee that it will be difficult for a happy conclusion to this thread.

You haven't been around long enough to see any real impassioned threads

WittyAg · #**113** 11-07-2009, 07:58 AM

I reiterate:

Macion grey · #**114** 11-07-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richmondesi

You haven't been around long enough to see any real impassioned threads

True, but I have been on the internet for a while. The well known:

Normal Person + Anonymity + Forum = Binary Opinion

equation just may

come into play here...

Macion grey · #**115** 11-07-2009, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WittyAg

I reiterate:

Much more concise than my attempt. Excellent.

82R100 · #**116** 11-07-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

... You buy from The Invisible Edge, problems are theirs. It really is that simple, thanks to the EU e-commerce directive, and EU consumer protection laws. I think it would be helpful if someone with a US legal background could comment on the situation over there.

Since no one with legal credentials has stepped forward yet, I'm going to venture the observation (an a non-professional) that this sort of consumer protection is likely handled by the individual states.

- Chris

Tony Miller · #**117** 11-07-2009, 08:18 AM

From my own perspective as a vendor, and what may or may not be the actual legal requirement, this is how I feel the manufacturer, vendor, customer relationship must work:

As a dealer I am fully responsible for anything I sell whether I make it or not. It is up to ME to be sure YOU are happy. I either need to fix it, replace it or refund you, promptly. No matter what you buy or where it originates a dealer is responsible for what he sells.

The manufacturer (or even the distributor) is responsible for what he sells to me, no matter who makes it. It is up to HIM to be sure I am happy. They either need to fix it, replace it or refund me, promptly.

While the manufacturer is ultimately responsible for what he makes it is not up to me to send you to him for repairs, or to even send your purchase back to him for repairs. I replace it for you immediately and then I handle the rest with him.

This is what ANY good vendor should do. A vendor who does not do this looses customers, a manufacturer who does not treat his vendor the same way looses vendors. It matters not whether you are in the USA or anywhere in the world...this is simply good business and the right way to conduct oneself.

Whoever Joel bought the razor from is fully responsible for making Joel happy...BUT...it reflects 100% on Dovo too as it is their name on the razor and they made it. If it was the guy honing it that damaged it....well you know what....they are Dovo's face to the public and it still reflects on Dovo even if the razor were perfect when it left. When you do business you enter into a partnership of sorts....customer, dealer, manufacturer.

So, to make a long rant short

the responsibility still falls on both parties, the vendor and the maker.

Tony

BeBerlin · #**118** 11-07-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Whoever Joel bought the razor from is fully responsible for making Joel happy...BUT...it reflects 100% on Dovo too as it is their name on the razor and they made it. If it was the guy honing it that damaged it....well you know what....they are Dovo's face to the public and it still reflects on Dovo even if the razor were perfect when it left. When you do business you enter into a partnership of sorts....customer, dealer, manufacturer.

Well said, for which many thanks, Tony, I think this sums all of this up perfectly.

Best regards,
Robin

Poulin · #**119** 11-07-2009, 08:35 AM

This thread has made for interesting reading to be sure. There are many opinions shared here and I think it is wonderful that there's someplace this can all be discussed. I continue to be thankful for the forums, they're a valuable resource for whoever chooses to make use of them.

I do want to add something here. I don't think, off the top of my head, that I've sent out a single Thiers Issard razor that I haven't inspected during order preparation. I don't plan to change this policy. So if you ever do order from me, and the seal appears to not be intact, that's because it isn't. And if it does appear to be intact, that means I actually managed to not mangle it too much when I was opening the box to inspect your razor! (I do try not to mangle them too much)

Have a great weekend!

Tony Miller · #**120** 11-07-2009, 11:33 AM

BTW, for the sake of full disclosure I recently sold one of my own personal shavers that I described as shave ready and even went over it before shipping. I must have been having an off day and my buyer felt it was still not shave ready. I immediately offered to pay to have one of the real honemeisters take care of it including all shipping. He didn't feel he needed to take me up on it but the offer was tendered and still stands.
Everyone can make a mistake, I know I have from time to time just as this example shows.

We all fall down sometimes, it is how gracefully we get back up that matters.

Tony