Quality and price

I have no experience with fragrance. A friend suggested that I try cologne, and I thought it was a good idea.

I generally appreciate fine products, and am willing to pay for them. However, I have heard rumors of bottles of high-end fragrances selling for over a hundred dollars even though they cost only a few dollars to manufacturer. In other words, I have been led to believe that in this market, it is easy to to pay for more than you get.

Indeed, high-end colognes seem to cost over $100 for a 2.0 oz bottle. On the surface, it isn't evident why they should cost so much, though like I say, I have no experience.

So I am led to wonder the following: is a fragrance that costs $60/oz generally better than one that costs a third of that, or is the higher priced one just another overpriced product designed to take advantage of the unwary consumer?

Generally the better quality fragrances (e.g. Penhaligon's, Trumper, Creed) use real essential oils and use a fairly large quantity of them. They are also relatively small producers and need a high margin to cover their operating costs. Mass market colognes often use synthetics and cost almost nothing to produce - the money goes into focus groups, brand image development, and high retail margins. My personal bias is that the quality products are better value for money and more enjoyable to use.

Great. That was exactly kind of answer I was seeking. Would you be able to provide a list of makers who are at the same level as Penhaligon's, Trumper, Creed, so I will know them when I see them, and be able to distinguish them from the cheap, overpriced brands?

biped said:

Great. That was exactly kind of answer I was seeking. Would you be able to provide a list of makers who are at the same level as Penhaligon's, Trumper, Creed, so I will know them when I see them, and be able to distinguish them from the cheap, overpriced brands?

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There is also a whole world of wonderful fragrances out there that are inexpensive, sometimes shocking so, that are special and utterly satisfying, with amazing histories and/or cultural heritages and with no focus groups, no brand image development, no advertising whatsoever, and who knows what retail margins. I also suspect that some/many of these are high in natural ingrediants, most are a bit short on staying power, but many of the high quality high end fragrances are, too. These less expensive gems include Muray and Lanman Florida Water Cologne, Clubman Aftershave, Pinaud and many other brands of bay rum including Ogallala and Superior 70, Clubman Vegetal Lilac, Colonia de Rosas (by Lanman and Kemp Barclay and Co), Royal Violets, Hoyt's--I am probably leaving off lots--through more commercial but still delightful products like English Leather, Aqua Velva, Jovan Musk, Brut, etc.

Several high end, quality products spring to mind immediately, but there are lots of out there, and you really have find your own way by sampling, buying decants, reading reviews or whatever--there is enormous disagreement among folks as to what they like for a scent. Other than what was named, Czech & Speake, Truefitt & Hill, Aqua di Parma, Knize Ten, come to mind immediately for me as quality, but there so many others. On some, but by no means all, some may think there is a certain old man quality to the scents as opposed to somewhat less expensive more highly hyped scents, though. And some of these scents whether they have higher concentrations of natural essential oils or not, do not have that much staying power

You really have to learn for yourself what you like. I would not forego the really good really inexpensive items though. There are also lots of in the middle colognes that I like too. Aramis for one. I have no idea how synthetic Aramis, or Issy, for that matter, but they are wonderful to me!

Both of our Sues here, make EO based aftershaves and EDT's and are extreamly resonable in cost and very good in quaility. It is a fine place to start.

biped said:

So I am led to wonder the following: is a fragrance that costs $60/oz generally better than one that costs a third of that, or is the higher priced one just another overpriced product designed to take advantage of the unwary consumer?

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If you tell me what 'better' is, then I'd be happy to provide the answer. And no, that's not a trick question.

As with all products, there is a point of diminishing returns. More expensive products tend to use more natural ingredients, which according to the Lore should provide better longevity, subtler fragrances, yaddayaddayadda. They might, they might equally well not. There is also a tendency of the fragrance being developed by someone who has a nose for them and is more able to create an interesting combination. But there is also a truckload of marketing and reverse psychology involved: an expensive product is a guilty pleasure, and somehow must be good because it was so expensive, no?

Unless you are a scent freak who is all about fragrance harmony and blending expertise and accords and drydowns and what-not, there are just four very practical issues which should be on your mind when trying stuff:

1. Do I like the fragrance?
2. Doesn't it clash with my own body chemistry?
3. Does it have good longevity?
4. Is its price higher than I'm willing to pay?

A possible fifth issue deals with exclusivity: Acqua di Giò for example is a fragrance most people know and enjoy, but at the same time everyone knows about it. That might not be what you want.

In the end: don't be fooled by names, price and the like. Just follow your nose .

The reason Creeds justify their price IMO is how they project and the quality of their ingredients. Longevity is low and reapplication is necessary, but this is a good thing. I want to be able to control my longevity, sillage, and projection, not the other way around. The tradeoff is that a higher concentration of natural oils will produce a scent that is different than the mass market and may not agree with your body chemistry.

Kouros said:

The reason Creeds justify their price IMO is how they project and the quality of their ingredients. Longevity is low and reapplication is necessary, but this is a good thing. I want to be able to control my longevity, sillage, and projection, not the other way around.

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So you do that by controlling the only thing you can, which is the amount you apply. From that, everything else follows. But the same principle is valid for a cheaper product. Creed does not allow you to change composition on the fly, after all. That means Creed is terrible news for you as customer if you think about it: the price of Creed is very high (+/- €100 per normal-sized bottle), but it gives you less 'scent time' than the cheaper fragrance (which in many occasions was blended with the same expertise), and therefore requires more applications, emptying the bottle more quickly.

The tradeoff is that a higher concentration of natural oils will produce a scent that is different than the mass market and may not agree with your body chemistry.

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I thought Creed was so expensive because they used a terribly inefficient scheme to extract the oils by hand. It will yield a somewhat different fragrance, true. But since the olfactory sense of the majority of people is not particularly keen, the effort is more or less wasted. Only true 'noses' will be able to appreciate the little subtleties its designer put in.

Creed makes some great fragrances and if you like them there is no reason why you shouldn't enjoy them. Just don't say that short longevity is a Good Thing, because it isn't.

A good fragrance is one that you like, that smells good on you, and that lasts an adequate amount of time.

There's no consensus on fragrances, and there's no monopoly on quality.

I like the idea of trying out one of the Sue's products; well made but reasonably priced.

By all means, if you absolutely can't live without T&H 1805 or Penhaligon's Opus or whatever, buy it and use it. But there is absolutely no way there is a linear relationship of price to quality in colognes. No way.

There are many excellent colognes discounted because they are "old" fragrances or simply over-produced. I enjoy Beene Gray Flannel, Caron 3rd Man, Davidoff Zino and others that can been found discounted on several sites, including Fragrancenet and Scentiments. Also there are several brands that do not charge high prices. I enjoy Caswell-Massey and Crabtree & Evelyn. The really best advice is to sample, on the skin, before you go in for a bottle purchase - probably with most any brand.

I would also urge you to try a sample at home when you have narrowed down your choice. See how long it lasts on you, if your body chemistry changes the scent. Too many times what smells good out of the bottle, isn't quite the same later. If you try to smell several in the same visit, the scents have a tendancy to become blurred.

I used to sniff the samplers in a shop, buy what I liked and later on was very disappointed in my selection.....especially when I calculated how many hours I had to work to clear what I spent on a fragrance that I did not enjoy.

Good luck!
Sue

Sue said:

I would also urge you to try a sample at home when you have narrowed down your choice. See how long it lasts on you, if your body chemistry changes the scent. Too many times what smells good out of the bottle, isn't quite the same later. If you try to smell several in the same visit, the scents have a tendancy to become blurred.

I used to sniff the samplers in a shop, buy what I liked and later on was very disappointed in my selection.....especially when I calculated how many hours I had to work to clear what I spent on a fragrance that I did not enjoy.

Good luck!
Sue

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This is all solid advice Sue. I too have burned by my nose being overwhelmed. Now I try to buy mini's or decants whenever possible.

cymric said:

If you tell me what 'better' is, then I'd be happy to provide the answer. And no, that's not a trick question.

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Better, for my purposes, means more desired by buyers who know the product, and care only about its intrinsic features, as opposed to its image and hype. If educated buyers prefer A to B for reasons other than price, then A is better than B. Obviously, the choice is in part subjective as it depends on individuals' preferences. Therefore we concern ourselves with the aggregate rather than any particular individual.

cymric said:

I thought Creed was so expensive because they used a terribly inefficient scheme to extract the oils by hand. It will yield a somewhat different fragrance, true. But since the olfactory sense of the majority of people is not particularly keen, the effort is more or less wasted. Only true 'noses' will be able to appreciate the little subtleties its designer put in.

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If this is so, then what might be some brands that have the knowledge and fastidiousness of Creed, but are also willing to utilize modern efficiencies?

Kouros said:

Longevity is low and reapplication is necessary, but this is a good thing.

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I can't say that's correct for all Creeds. Certainly some Creeds have longevity and projection problems (Epicea comes to mind) but other last forever; Vintage Tabarome, Baie de Genievre and Orange Spice have all lasted about 24hours on me.

biped said:

Better, for my purposes, means more desired by buyers who know the product, and care only about its intrinsic features, as opposed to its image and hype. If educated buyers prefer A to B for reasons other than price, then A is better than B. Obviously, the choice is in part subjective as it depends on individuals' preferences. Therefore we concern ourselves with the aggregate rather than any particular individual.

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Take a look at basenotes - that's a whole forum dedicated to fragrances, various people post their comments on them.
And yes body chemistry is the uncontrolled variable that you cannot take into account. While A may be fantastic on me it may smell horrible on you and vice versa, it doesn't need to be such a drastic difference, but you will note that that's something you should take into account.

The more objective quantities are things like what are the basic notes, how well they are blended, how complex the fragrance is (and you'll note that again it becomes a matter of personal preference if you like very complex stuff, or more clean notes).

biped said:

If this is so, then what might be some brands that have the knowledge and fastidiousness of Creed, but are also willing to utilize modern efficiencies?

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Pretty much every big company these days is concerned with profits. So if blend A is cheaper to make than blend B, being similar in everything else they will make blend A.

All of the expensive ones have the money to buy any perfumer, in fact very few houses have their own perfumers, most contract somebody else. So, the knowledge is not an issue. Usually it's getting the profits while keeping the desired company image.

Penhaligon's for example has few blends that are a century old, and they have some very new ones, which I don't consider nowhere near as good. But many guys like them a lot better.
Floris is not producing Sandalwood anymore and my theory is that due to the high costs of sandalwood essential oil it doesn't fit their business model anymore. But their price point is 30% lower than Creed and I like Floris better and would buy it even if it costs 30% more than Creed.

The best is to figure out what you like best and then buy that. Even the stuff that's expensive is really a matter of initial cost - it lasts really long time. The cost is somewhere in the few cents per day and compared to everybody's other daily expenditures it's negligible amount.

Now figuring out what you like is the hard part, and your tastes are more than likely to change with time.