Some Espresso Tips Please

So I am realatively new to Espresso Making.

well i love to make espresso for a quick latte in the morning or to add to my protein shake for some caffeine kick.

my questions are

1. how fine do i grind the beans in my grinder, as fine as i can?

2. how much pressure do i put on the grinds when i fill the little bowl...mine can either take 2 table spoons for double or 1 for singles. I have a heavy stainless tamper.

thanks...i dont know all the technical terms...here is my machine...



http://www.amazon.com/Breville-ESP8XL-Stainless-Espresso-Maker/dp/B0002VAFWA

I set my grind to produce the shot in the correct time. You probably want to use some old beans you don't care about wasting and you'll need a clock or watch that reads seconds. A floor scale can be used to familiarize yourself with what the correct tamp feels like....and you want to try to repeat that (approximately) each time. If you want to get fancy, there are tamping gizmos available.
I weigh my grounds rather than using a doser. When you're working on setting your grinder, try to keep the other variables (temp, dose, tamp) as close to constant as is reasonably constant. Then, vary the grind until you consistently obtain the 'ideal' pour (in seconds). I purposely left out the values as they're subject to debate....20# tamp, 20 sec pour, etc.
When you start fiddling with this stuff, you'll quickly learn its not easy to obtain a "perfect" shot. There are many variables, and even after you get a handle on it, perfection is still elusive. You can, however" get consistently fine shots with practice if you keep your equipment clean and your ducks in a row!
Have fun (and don't take it too seriously)!

That depends on what kind of a grinder you're using, what sort of coffee you're using, what sort of shot you intend to pull, and so on.

Dosing should be by weight, but that's very inconvenient for most people. You can get by with volume to achieve an approximate dose weight. (if you're measuring in grams, and not tenths of grams, each gram is only approximately a gram anyway... right?)

As has been mentioned, there is a whole lot to this espresso business.

If you would like help diagnosing your shots, feel free to shoot me a pm, and I'll help with what I can all things considered.

Thanks guys...I think I may need to get a burr grinder from what I have read

The first response is right on.

I weigh my grinds as well. How finely you grind is the variable that I change most. This is because different beans, roast, or humidity effect the output of the machine on a daily basis. The goal is to pull your shot in 25-28 seconds. To do so you should use the same amount, 16 grams, of grinds and the same tamp pressure, about 30 lbs. If you can repeat that, you then dial in your grind to produce your double shot in 25-28 seconds.

Brodirt said:

The first response is right on.

I weigh my grinds as well. How finely you grind is the variable that I change most. This is because different beans, roast, or humidity effect the output of the machine on a daily basis. The goal is to pull your shot in 25-28 seconds. To do so you should use the same amount, 16 grams, of grinds and the same tamp pressure, about 30 lbs. If you can repeat that, you then dial in your grind to produce your double shot in 25-28 seconds.

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Doesn't all of that depend on the coffee? Don't some coffees prefer more or less than 16g? More or less than 25-28sec.?

Why is it that everyone always thinks that 30lbs. is somehow the ideal tamping pressure? What would happen if you were to tamp with more or less pressure?

Let the cup be your guide. Books are full of guidelines. There are no rules. There is no standard. There are only results.

Jasonian said:

Doesn't all of that depend on the coffee? Don't some coffees prefer more or less than 16g? More or less than 25-28sec.?

Why is it that everyone always thinks that 30lbs. is somehow the ideal tamping pressure? What would happen if you were to tamp with more or less pressure?

Let the cup be your guide. Books are full of guidelines. There are no rules. There is no standard. There are only results.

Click to expand...

The problem with that is that there needs to be constants in order to ascertain what or where improvement can be had. Any of the above can be set as the variable, but if you just go at your shots with each and every element as a variable you will never learn what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.


Heck, I even have a PID on my machine so that I know that my shot temp is the same every time no matter what.

Once you dial in what you are doing I think then you can go about switching to a different variable. As it stands the variable that is most easy to deal with, and most impactful on your shot, is grind fineness or lack thereof. IMHO, it is the place to start.

PS....I would not ever venture beyond the "golden rule" of 25-28 seconds for pulling espresso shots. Too much temperature loss at that point.

Brodirt said:

The problem with that is that there needs to be constants in order to ascertain what or where improvement can be had. Any of the above can be set as the variable, but if you just go at your shots with each and every element as a variable you will never learn what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.


Heck, I even have a PID on my machine so that I know that my shot temp is the same every time no matter what.

Once you dial in what you are doing I think then you can go about switching to a different variable. As it stands the variable that is most easy to deal with, and most impactful on your shot, is grind fineness or lack thereof. IMHO, it is the place to start.

PS....I would not ever venture beyond the "golden rule" of 25-28 seconds for pulling espresso shots. Too much temperature loss at that point.

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Let your palate be the judge. Some of my best ristrettos have been 40-50 seconds....

Brodirt said:

The problem with that is that there needs to be constants in order to ascertain what or where improvement can be had. Any of the above can be set as the variable, but if you just go at your shots with each and every element as a variable you will never learn what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.


Heck, I even have a PID on my machine so that I know that my shot temp is the same every time no matter what.

Once you dial in what you are doing I think then you can go about switching to a different variable. As it stands the variable that is most easy to deal with, and most impactful on your shot, is grind fineness or lack thereof. IMHO, it is the place to start.

PS....I would not ever venture beyond the "golden rule" of 25-28 seconds for pulling espresso shots. Too much temperature loss at that point.

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I could continue playing the devil's advocate and turn this into a horribly complicated thread, but instead I'll just say, "give it a try".

There is no "golden rule". There is a "guideline". Some coffees like 22s. Some like 40s. It really depends on WHAT you want to extract from the coffee as well as the final cup characteristics.

What are you afraid of?

Scotto said:

Let your palate be the judge. Some of my best ristrettos have been 40-50 seconds....

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A ristretto is a ristretto, its not a double shot of espresso. I too run ristretto shots longer...the machine takes longer to simply get the water through the grinds properly prepared for a ristretto shot. I make my ristretto shots simply by tamping harder with the same espresso grind.

Jasonian said:

I could continue playing the devil's advocate and turn this into a horribly complicated thread, but instead I'll just say, "give it a try".

There is no "golden rule". There is a "guideline". Some coffees like 22s. Some like 40s. It really depends on WHAT you want to extract from the coffee as well as the final cup characteristics.

What are you afraid of?

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Some people like under-extracted or over-extracted coffee. You cant know what you like unless and until you work through one variable at a time.

Heh, heh. It really is a simple-looking task that is, in reality, not simple at all. It can be carried to amazing extremes. In the end, though, what matters most is how it tastes to you.
When you see your local barista slamming around, knocking in a dose, then "tamping" it with the plastic protrusion on their grinder, they're not paying much attention to technique. Still, they can draw some pretty good-tasting shots if they have decent, fresh beans.
As long as your grinder can deliver consistent results, and given some practice, so can you!

I use an Espro tamper to ensure uniformity in my tamp pressure. It "clicks" when you hit the 30lb mark. See http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/accessories/esprotampers

Brodirt said:

A ristretto is a ristretto, its not a double shot of espresso. I too run ristretto shots longer...the machine takes longer to simply get the water through the grinds properly prepared for a ristretto shot. I make my ristretto shots simply by tamping harder with the same espresso grind.

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Unless you're tamping harder than 100lbs per square inch, you're not making enough of a difference to make it a ristretto (which, by the way, means restricted... What THAT means is ambiguous, at best, and is yet to be absolutely defined. Thus implying, that if a 40 second shot yields the same volume from the same dose, many professionals, myself included, would not consider it to be a ristretto).

Brodirt said:

Some people like under-extracted or over-extracted coffee. You cant know what you like unless and until you work through one variable at a time.

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When learning, it is best to work through one variable at a time. With that I agree. However, you should know that working through "one variable at a time" is very time-consuming, and is really unnecessary for many professionals who can detect several factors by pulling a shot and tasting it. Especially when each variable is effecting another variable to the point that changing one variable at a time may not be enough.

That aside, I do hope you weren't intending to imply that I prefer over or under extracted coffee, and I'd be willing to bet that you could not give me a specific enough description for either beyond personal opinion. It's just not scientifically feasible.

Jasonian said:

Unless you're tamping harder than 100lbs per square inch, you're not making enough of a difference to make it a ristretto (which, by the way, means restricted... What THAT means is ambiguous, at best, and is yet to be absolutely defined. Thus implying, that if a 40 second shot yields the same volume from the same dose, many professionals, myself included, would not consider it to be a ristretto).



When learning, it is best to work through one variable at a time. With that I agree. However, you should know that working through "one variable at a time" is very time-consuming, and is really unnecessary for many professionals who can detect several factors by pulling a shot and tasting it. Especially when each variable is effecting another variable to the point that changing one variable at a time may not be enough.

That aside, I do hope you weren't intending to imply that I prefer over or under extracted coffee, and I'd be willing to bet that you could not give me a specific enough description for either beyond personal opinion. It's just not scientifically feasible.

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I was implying nothing other than that you could apply "like" to any scenario, even a wrong one. You are a professional and are seeking to apply all of your time earned knowledge to a beginner. Your statement that some coffee's "like" a certain pull time and some "like" another pull time is completely arbitrary without a broad frame of reference. Maybe those coffees actually like your Expobar and not 22 seconds or maybe its really the water at your shop that they prefer. How can you expect someone starting out to have that kind of reference of taste if s/he has not, in fact, spent their time working through the one variable at a time...as I am sure you have. Furthermore, if someone is drinking shots for home use, they are making 2 maybe 3 a day...if you dont use the one variable at a time method until they perfect things, then all their really doing is making "coffee" in an espresso machine.

Hence my suggestion to not take it too seriously. I assume other forum members are similar to me: doing a lot of research, spending a lot of time (and dollars!), etc. in pursuit of perfection.
There are a WHOLE lot of similarities between wet-shaving and espresso making!

tsmba said:

Hence my suggestion to not take it too seriously. I assume other forum members are similar to me: doing a lot of research, spending a lot of time (and dollars!), etc. in pursuit of perfection.
There are a WHOLE lot of similarities between wet-shaving and espresso making!

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Indeed there are, and there is no such thing as "perfection", despite our best efforts.

Brodirt said:

You are a professional and are seeking to apply all of your time earned knowledge to a beginner.

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I can maybe agree with that. It wasn't directed towards the OP so much as the person I replied to, so while it was indirect, it was perhaps true.

And no, not all of my time, or all of my earned knowledge. This is basic stuff. (to me)

erictski said:

So I am realatively new to Espresso Making.
well i love to make espresso for a quick latte in the morning or to add to my protein shake for some caffeine kick.

Click to expand...

Most Americans wouldn't know good espresso if it, umm, bit them. As a culture, we tend to drink huge milk beverages flavored with cloying syrups and a dribble of over-extracted espresso.

It not quite true that the concentrated flavor of fine espresso carries additional caffeine than say,your common office bilge. Well crafted espresso carries about one half the caffeine content of robust.

You learn to make good espresso by making 200 demitasse over a weekend. You don't drink them, you need a good spoon and a spittoon. You carefully try to figure out what's wrong with most of them. As others have suggested, try to only change one of the many variables at a time.

david boise ID

I agree 100%! I despise getting a "cappucino" that comes in a tall cup and is drowned (!!) in milk. I guess that's a good way to cover up awful-tasting espresso.
If I do order at a kiosk or store, I always ask for a dry cap and end up having to explain the whole thing. Sometimes, if I order a machiatto, it will come as something resembling a real cappucino.
It seems most places I've tried are unprepared for someone to actually order an espresso. After tasting them, that's probably a good thing!