Thoughts on tallow based soaps vs non-tallow soaps

**Sluggo** · 04-08-2009, 06:03 PM

I am fairly new to shaving with a soap, but I think I have noticed a difference between tallow soaps (PdP, Cade, etc) and non-tallow based soaps (Mama Bear).

To me, the tallow soaps seems richer and generate a better lather. I think they provide a slicker lather too. I like the Mama Bear soaps (especially the scents) but the lather just seems not as nice.

Is this a case of YMMV or do others agree?

**rbaloha** · 04-08-2009, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sluggo

I am fairly new to shaving with a soap, but I think I have noticed a difference between tallow soaps (PdP, Cade, etc) and non-tallow based soaps (Mama Bear).

To me, the tallow soaps seems richer and generate a better lather. I think they provide a slicker lather too. I like the Mama Bear soaps (especially the scents) but the lather just seems not as nice.

Is this a case of YMMV or do others agree?

Tallow soaps do produce a little thicker lather than glycerin soaps. The French based shea butter soaps imo produce comparable tallow lather.

However thicker lather does not necessarily translate to a better shave. Keep experimenting and try creams.

**SRock** · 04-08-2009, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by rbaloha

Tallow soaps do produce a little thicker lather than glycerin soaps. However thicker lather does not necessarily translate to a better shave. Keep experimenting.

I'll second that. IMHO I do agree that Tallow base soaps offer up a greater quantity of lather. In fact when I use Tallow based soaps I actually tend to use less product because you get such a thick lather. Perhaps one of the hidden perks of tallow.

**Gruder** · 04-08-2009, 06:47 PM

Tallow = superior lather. Glycerin = acceptable lather (often compensated for by being more highly scented). I use both.

**thirdeye** · 04-08-2009, 07:10 PM

It is really simple, Tallow is a better quality soap.

**waterbear** · 04-08-2009, 07:23 PM

All other things being equal tallow will produce a better lathering soap (in terms of the qualities we look for with shaving) than a vegetable soap. It's in the nature of the fats. Palm oil and Palm Kernel oil can come close but they are still not the same (and if someone stays away from animal fat based soaps on philosophical reasons I would suggest you look into the controversy surrounding the farming of palm and palm kernel oil, the decimation of rain forests as a result, and the carbon footprint of this endevour!)

Glycerin soaps can be tallow based or vegetable based, btw. However, tallow is NOT the only ingredient that will determine whether a soap is a good shave soap (try shaving with a bar of Dial, which is a tallow based soap!)

The Mamabear soaps mentioned above appear to be vegetable based glycerin soaps from the ingredients list but since I do not know exactly how she makes them and from what (melt and pour or rebatch--I will guess melt and pour since both alcohol and sugar are absent from the ingredients list, although sorbitol is included.) I cannot really comment. I can comment that they are an EXCELLENT glycerin shaving soap and the scent that I have is WONDERFUL (as is the bathsoap I have)! She is truely an artisan when it comes to scents, a skill that many soapmakers lack!

Other oils and additives besides tallow (such as castor oil, avacado oil, coconut oil, apricot kernel oil, cocoa butter, stearic acid, honey, etc.) will have an effect (and it can be different depending on exactly where in the soapmaking process they are added!)

100% Olive oil is probably the least suitable oil for making a shave soap (as anyone who has ever tried La Riana can attest to.)

**Augustiner** · 04-08-2009, 08:13 PM

Hands down tallow soaps are superior.

I have seen people argue this point, but in my experience I have never disproved this by using a non-tallow soap. I have a very thick and coarse beard and when I use a non-tallow soap it feels like I sent a boy to do a mans job. It feels like "toy" lather, just not substantial at all. The final shave is just not close at all and my skin is more torn up. Immediately after the shave it looks like I have a 5'o clock shadow, the blade feels like it just bounces off of my whiskers and I feel like I've wasted my time. With tallow soaps the shave is very close and I have no irritation whatsoever.

This leads to the reason I think the thicker lather of tallow gives people superior results. I think it is closer because the lather is so thick and substantial that it is able to hold the whiskers out from your face at more of a 90 degree angle. This way the razor can take it off closer to the root.

**SRock** · 04-09-2009, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by thirdeye

It is really simple, Tallow is a better quality soap.

You know we all could have saved some time by simply saying it like Ray did.

How about this:

Give me Tallow or give me death!

**antdad1969** · 04-09-2009, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by waterbear

All other things being equal tallow will produce a better lathering soap (in terms of the qualities we look for with shaving) than a vegetable soap. It's in the nature of the fats. Palm oil and Palm Kernel oil can come close but they are still not the same (and if someone stays away from animal fat based soaps on philosophical reasons I would suggest you look into the controversy surrounding the farming of palm and palm kernel oil, the decimation of rain forests as a result, and the carbon footprint of this endevour!)

I'm in big trouble...Palmolive has tallow and palm oil.

**persco** · 04-09-2009, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Sluggo

I am fairly new to shaving with a soap, but I think I have noticed a difference between tallow soaps (PdP, Cade, etc) and non-tallow based soaps (Mama Bear).

To me, the tallow soaps seems richer and generate a better lather. I think they provide a slicker lather too. I like the Mama Bear soaps (especially the scents) but the lather just seems not as nice.

Is this a case of YMMV or do others agree?

Just to clarify, though, neither PdP nor Cade contain tallow. I use both. Very hard soaps, and superb ones, too, but they are vegetable based. Tallow is made from animal fat (used in soaps like Mitchell's Wool Fat, Tabac, or Speick) and is listed in the ingredients as sodium tallowate.

rum · 04-09-2009, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by persco

Just to clarify, though, neither PdP nor Cade contain tallow. I use both. Very hard soaps, and superb ones, too, but they are vegetable based. Tallow is made from animal fat (used in soaps like Mitchell's Wool Fat, Tabac, or Speick) and is listed in the ingredients as sodium tallowate.

Also Potassium Tallowate if I'm not mistaken?

**brumble** · 04-09-2009, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Sluggo

I am fairly new to shaving with a soap, but I think I have noticed a difference between tallow soaps (PdP, Cade, etc) and non-tallow based soaps (Mama Bear).

To me, the tallow soaps seems richer and generate a better lather. I think they provide a slicker lather too. I like the Mama Bear soaps (especially the scents) but the lather just seems not as nice.

Is this a case of YMMV or do others agree?

It is YMMV and Waterbear's post is right on - it's not the ingredients themselves, but the formulation that matters.

Tallow is not some magic ingredient that will make a soap great. Just read the reviews of Williams (a soap that lists Sodium Tallowate as the first ingredient).

**norman931** · 04-09-2009, 10:54 AM

I'll be a dissenting voice here. I've tried numerous tallow soaps (Trumpers, MWF, T&H, Tabac), and none of them have worked as well for me as Honeybee soap (my favorite for over two years now!). I'm glad you guys have soaps that you like, but some of us prefer the non-tallow soaps.
I do like to experiment; this week I tried Cade (will be on BST shortly) and SCS Avocado cream (WOW! Gotta check out the soaps, too!)

**Dan Forest** · 04-10-2009, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by waterbear

All other things being equal tallow will produce a better lathering soap (in terms of the qualities we look for with shaving) than a vegetable soap. It's in the nature of the fats. Palm oil and Palm Kernel oil can come close but they are still not the same (and if someone stays away from animal fat based soaps on philosophical reasons I would suggest you look into the controversy surrounding the farming of palm and palm kernel oil, the decimation of rain forests as a result, and the carbon footprint of this endevour!)

If you have specific links to this issue, would you please list them. I am interested.

**New Orleans** · 04-10-2009, 11:04 AM

I know MWF is tallow based. What are some others?

**waterbear** · 04-10-2009, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Dan Forest

If you have specific links to this issue, would you please list them. I am interested.

Here are a few, there are many others:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6927890.stm
http://www.carbon-financeonline.com/...ew&return=home
http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...e-climate-full
http://www.forestpeoples.org/documen..._nov07_eng.pdf
http://www.cspinet.org/palm/PalmOilReport.pdf

Let me add that the soap industry is not really the major one at fault here but rather the biodiesel industry, since that is where the vast majority of palm and palm kernel oil goes.

**waterbear** · 04-10-2009, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by New Orleans

I know MWF is tallow based. What are some others?

Speick, Williams, Tabac, and, IIRC Arko shave stick to name a few

**New Orleans** · 04-10-2009, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by waterbear

Speick, Williams, Tabac, and, IIRC Arko shave stick to name a few

I know MWF is touted a lot, as a tallow based, fantastic soap. Williams, on the other hand, gets very mixed reviews. Obviously tallow is not magic. After MWF, what is considered to be a "top shelf" tallow soap?

**Obsessed** · 04-10-2009, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by New Orleans

I know MWF is touted a lot, as a tallow based, fantastic soap. Williams, on the other hand, gets very mixed reviews. Obviously tallow is not magic. After MWF, what is considered to be a "top shelf" tallow soap?

Check this out:

http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=53353

**waterbear** · 04-10-2009, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by New Orleans

Obviously tallow is not magic.

No, Read my first post in this thread...this is based on about 30 years of soapmaking as a hobby.

As far as Williams, it's a decent soap if you lather it right! I've been using it for years and get a good (but not GREAT) shave with it but for the price who's complaining....then again that's true of a lot of soaps and creams, isn't it?