Witch Hazel Question

AverageJoe said:

OKayyyyyyyyyyyyyy...........................and what can we over-analyze next???

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ROFLMAO!
Clubman Rob is right on the money and I feel his pain!

Sometimes the obvious is hard to understand for the non technical and sometimes advertising hype gets in the way of truth.

Witch Hazel contains 14% alcohol, If it's alcohol free it's just herbal tea (an infusion)!
If you look at the link that Clubman Rob posted for American Distlling you can see that both Dickinson's and Humphreys use their witch hazel distillate in their products!
http://www.americandistilling.com/products.htm
(lower picture--Dickinson's on the right, Humprhreys on the left)

waterbear said:

ROFLMAO!
Clubman Rob is right on the money and I feel his pain!

Sometimes the obvious is hard to understand for the non technical and sometimes advertising hype gets in the way of truth.

Witch Hazel contains 14% alcohol, If it's alcohol free it's just herbal tea (an infusion)!
If you look at the link that Clubman Rob posted for American Distlling you can see that both Dickinson's and Humphreys use their witch hazel distillate in their products!
http://www.americandistilling.com/products.htm
(lower picture--Dickinson's on the right, Humprhreys on the left)

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Not the "non-technical", but maybe the "non-chemical". You chemists or chemical engineers must have met some mechanical engineers in college. If I used any part of a Witch Hazel plant, I would call it Witch Hazel extract. I am a "technical" person, so I have no problem following the conventional definitions established in the given field. I just wanted a sound explanation, and Clubman Rob stepped up and provided it.

ClubmanRob,

I believe I understood your point (although I'll admit I skimmed over a few parts) but I'm still a little confused and maybe you can clear it up for me.

If genuine Witch Hazel has 14% alcohol as a result of the distillation process, are these other Witch Hazel products that have varying amounts of alcohol still an effective product?

For instance, Thayers makes a Witch Hazel with 10% alcohol, and the Medicated Superhazel has 20% alcohol, listed in the ingredients as "natural grain alcohol as a preservative".

Does this mean what we have here is a weak, ineffective extract from the plant (that was not properly distilled) mixed with grain alcohol from a different source?

And of course my next thought is, "I always loved this stuff, was it the placebo effect?"

TorzJohnson said:

ClubmanRob,

I believe I understood your point (although I'll admit I skimmed over a few parts) but I'm still a little confused and maybe you can clear it up for me.

If genuine Witch Hazel has 14% alcohol as a result of the distillation process, are these other Witch Hazel products that have varying amounts of alcohol still an effective product?

For instance, Thayers makes a Witch Hazel with 10% alcohol, and the Medicated Superhazel has 20% alcohol, listed in the ingredients as "natural grain alcohol as a preservative".

Does this mean what we have here is a weak, ineffective extract from the plant (that was not properly distilled) mixed with grain alcohol from a different source?

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I can't really comment much on the Thayer's line, because honestly, I really don't know how they process their extract, or if true WH extract is even used, or if they just manufacture a cracked up "extract" using chemicals that are supposed to replicate the natural ingredients of Witch Hazel- I dunno.

See, even if they were to not use distillation as an extraction method, their "extract" should still have a pretty high alcohol content from the tannin count, though I seriously doubt it is as high as 10%- so even if they're "keeping it real" then they're still adding alcohol to the mixture some kind of way. The 20% alcohol Thayer's- I wouldn't even be able to begin to guess what that's all about. It sounds to me like they want to replicate the effects of "bad old" distilled Witch Hazel yet still somehow pretend to be "all natural".

And once again, this is just a guess being that I really don't know enough about the alcohol variants of Thayers, but yes, I would suspect that they're trying to "beef up" a weak, poorly extracted, or man-made Witch Hazel synthesis by adding pure grain alcohol. The whole idea is counter intuitive- alcohol distillation was a process that was invented in order to keep the extract pure and strong, and as a side benefit we have the alcohol byproduct which acts as a preservative as well as an antiseptic astringent, basically replacing and improving upon the natural tannins that are steamed away in distillation.

Now, if your formula is "all natural" and better for you like Thayer's claims, why do they feel the need to remove the natural alcohols from the Tannin in their extract? That's what they would have to do in order to claim "alcohol free", unless they're just lying. If they are removing the natural alkids, then how can they claim it's "all natural"? They're lying about something here, but I digress... as far as adding all that grain alcohol- it just sounds like a cheap way of salvaging left over product that was extracted improperly.

And of course my next thought is, "I always loved this stuff, was it the placebo effect?"

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Nope, alcohol free "Witch Hazel" can still give you an astringent effect- the tannins that are removed during the distillation process should still be inherent to an alcohol free formula. These tannins are an excellent astringent- they will tighten your pores and help to seal wounds- but in no way are they anti-bacterial or antiseptic. So you still get that tight face feeling, but no disinfection is taking place. A cheaper (free) way to achieve the same thing is to splash some cold water on your face after shaving.

Now keep in mind, these tannins are replaced with ethyl alcohol during the distillation process, so the astringent effect in true Witch Hazel will be even stronger than it would in a tannic, alcohol free compound.

After reading this, I gather that your opinion is that the cheap Witch Hazel at Wal-mart that is actually Witch Hazel is probably better than the Thayers product. Would that be fair?

By the way, I appreciate the over analysis... This is how you become educated on things instead of lemmings following the hype.

richmondesi said:

After reading this, I gather that your opinion is that the cheap Witch Hazel at Wal-mart that is actually Witch Hazel is probably better than the Thayers product. Would that be fair?

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If you are referring to the Dickinson's that Walmart sells I would have to say yes. BTW, the same Dickinson's at CVS is almost as expensive as the Thayer's at the Health Food store.

waterbear said:

If you are referring to the Dickinson's that Walmart sells I would have to say yes. BTW, the same Dickinson's at CVS is almost as expensive as the Thayer's at the Health Food store.

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The one that I was referencing is manufactured by Aaron Industries, and is listed as 86% Witch Hazel and 14% Alcohol. It seems to work great, but I was thinking about getting the Thayers with the aloe vera. I guess I should stick with the $2 stuff that I can get in my back yard here.

Thanks ClubmanRob for all the good information, looks like I'll just stick with my Dickinson's

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I love overanalyzing stuff to the point at which it becomes redundant- it gives me something to do.

In my opinion, there's not a whole lot of difference between distilled Witch Hazels. Dickinson's is the one I use the most of, simply because that's the brand my lab stocks and uses. It seems to have a more pleasant smell to it than some of the store brands, but really there doesn't seem to be much variance between formulas. Any of these IMO would be better than some weird Thayers concoction.

What's funny is that I came upon all this trivia about Witch Hazels because of having to order some for my lab. We have three or four brands available from the company catalog we use, one of them being Thayers Alcohol Free Witch Hazel. When I went to place the order, I noticed that someone had crossed out the picture of Thayers and wrote over the numbers "DO NOT ORDER EVER." Wondering what the deal was, I asked a couple of people why we weren't allowed to order Thayers, and that was how I got my crash course in Witch Hazel distillation.

+1 on the kudos to ClubmanRob for his over-analysis. It took me a while, and I had to think, but in the end I learned a lot.

~Jeff

I've got Thayer's rose and standard Dickinson's. I enjoy the Thayer's because the scent matches the shaving cream, the vitamin E and aloe appear to be less drying than the Dickinson's when applied to my face. I use Dickinson's for other bodily functions because witch hazel extract is on of the main ingredients in Tucks.

So, ignoring the fact that Thayer's may not actually contain real witch hazel and the possibility the other ingredients actually do nothing, I like how it feels and I'm not really looking for antiseptic action, I can use any number of potions from my wife's side of the bathroom for that.

david boise ID

I'm with David/bogiesan on this. I don't care for the scent of 14% witch hazels like Dickinson's. I much prefer Thayers Lemon, which contains 10% alcohol and some form of witch hazel, because it performs similar to Dickinson's but to me smells better.

Dave

Might it be a good idea to mix the thayer's witch hazel with aloe and some traditional witch hazel? That way you get the aloe from the thayers and the disinfectant from the regular old fashioned?

I'm trying to figure out a way to NOT throw away the bottle of thayers I JUST bought.

Duncan Hill said:

I'm trying to figure out a way to NOT throw away the bottle of thayers I JUST bought.

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Does Thayer's work for you? It does for me, and I enjoy the scents, regardless of whether it meets the requirements of a true WH.

That said, I've enjoyed reading through this discussion--thank you, Rob, for sharing your knowledge!

Thanks for the reply, Rob. I don't use the alcohol free Thayers, but I do use the Medicated Superhazel. I think the reason it feels so refreshing to me is not just the witch hazel extract but the alcohol, camphor and peppermint extract.

Duncan Hill said:

Might it be a good idea to mix the thayer's witch hazel with aloe and some traditional witch hazel? That way you get the aloe from the thayers and the disinfectant from the regular old fashioned?

I'm trying to figure out a way to NOT throw away the bottle of thayers I JUST bought.

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You know after reading late last night, I said when I get home from work today I was going to add this very idea to the thread! That is what I do & have been doing for a long time now. I like the Thayers with rose water as a toner & I don't really care for the pure witch hazel after it dries on my skin. So I have been mixing them for some time now with great results. I mix at a ratio of 70/30. 70% Thayers & 30% Witch hazel. Depending on how you may like each product as to what you might want to mix it at.
Not that it's the same thing but I also mix my own lotion. Corn Huskers added with sweet almond oil & I love the results. This might not be for everybody but it does work great for me...

Duncan Hill said:

Might it be a good idea to mix the thayer's witch hazel with aloe and some traditional witch hazel? That way you get the aloe from the thayers and the disinfectant from the regular old fashioned?

I'm trying to figure out a way to NOT throw away the bottle of thayers I JUST bought.

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Thayers is great, quality stuff IMHO. No need to throw it away. Give it a chance!

Wow, before reading this thread, I thought for sure I was missing out with my $1.48 WallyWorld witch hazel.

Now I can stop hanging my head in shame, and proudly slap that cheap stuff on my ugly mug after each shave!

In fact, I had concocted a special "Cheap Bastard's Obsession Aftershave" to satisfy the bride's Obsession obsession. I mixed WallyWorld witch hazel, some cheap CK knockoff EDT stuff that my wife had picked up awhile back to try and sell me on the scent, and a few spritzes of real CK EDT.

Thanks to Clubman Rob, I no longer think it makes me smell like a corners cutting, penny pinching middle aged 80's holdover Lothario.

I now think it makes me smell like a penny pinching middle aged 80's holdover Lothario.

Geez, I love B&B!

TorzJohnson said:

...but I do use the Medicated Superhazel.

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I use the Superhazel as well, from time to time. To me, it smells almost exactly like the Sea Breeze astringent I used in my acne-prone teenage years.

So Dickinson's 14% alcohol Witch Hazel does have antispetic properties? I've been using it as an aftershave, mostly because regular aftershaves are too strong for my nose, but after reading a lot of posts where people use witch hazel AND an aftershave, I thought that I might be using it wrong.