Is DE/Straight wetshaving making a comeback.

moto · Mar 14, 2009

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?

I have also asked friends and guys at work and hardly any use DE's and none straights! The all look like they've seen a ghost when I mention DE's and shrink in size and reply to me like I'm offering them a killer virus at the mention of a straight razor!

Most of the guy's used DE's before but say they are too dangerous to use?

Only a very small amount of ads in some mens mags and only if your "looking for it", on the internet.

I suppose time has something to do with it but I think it would be a close call except if you use electric?

I think I have seen more online stores of late but I wonder how many people are converting to wetshaving as we know it?

I think more promotion/advertising needs to be done to let people know how good it is to shave, how relaxing it is, how it's cheaper in the long run and how it's good for your skin. Oh yeah,, and how wonderful it is to mmm,,,,,,faceterbate.

Happy shaving,
moto, :a44:

Bertilak · Mar 14, 2009

moto said:
Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?

I see NO advertisements for DE/SE shaving in the USA. I don't think there any DE/SE razor manufacturers in the USA.

I do think the HOBBY of DE shaving (and perhaps SE as a minor variant) is increasing based on eBay prices going up in just the 3 months I have been paying attention. Can't say if this is because of collectors or actual shavers.

Can any of the people in charge here on B&B tell us if the number of active members is increasing? (e.g. posts per day or some such statistic) I tink I will ask that in a more appropriate forum.

SavantStrike · Mar 14, 2009

Yeah, I too am in the US and have seen no advertising for DE's whatsoever. I'm more concerned that while the hobby may have grown a bit, the total user base of DE's will shrink.
Gillette is desperately trying to push the cartridge mania in developing countries, and I'm sure the other manufacturers are doing so as well. As countries that are traditionally straight/DE start converting to cartridges, the DE market as a whole will shrink. That is unless the hobby takes off in developed countries and people stop listening to the multiblade madness. I'm also thoroughly convinced that in another 5-15 years Gillette (now P&G) is screwed, this could help.

In the late 90's Gillette introduced the Mach 3 as a massive technical breakthrough due to it's 3 blade design. A few years later Schick introduced the quattro with 4 blades and claimed this was an improvement. After some lawsuits between the two companies over claims of razor superiority it was determined that neither company was allowed to claim their razor was better due to it being impossible to test. A scant 2 years after the quattro's release, Gillette released the fusion with 5 blades, again stating that they had reached a new pinnacle with a 5 blade shave. Now Gillette is in the tweaking phase with the fusion power gamer... :001_rolle

I see two potential outcomes here. One is that the dorco pace 6 somehow ends up on US shores or in a market where it is competing with the fusion. Gillette may feel the need to prove superiority without stating superiority (remember the lawsuit with Schick). To do this Gillette will have to counter with a 7 bladed razor or a majorly redesigned fusion (not sure what they can even change there...).

Another outcome is that in less than a decade the Mach 3 will no longer be under patent and when Gillette is forced to retire the design to keep competitors from making aftermarket blades they will be forced to replace the fusion design. Again since Gillete has hyped more blades as better, they need at least 6 or 7 blades to make a new one sell. That is far too many blades and the razor will be so unwieldy at that point that the only thing Gillette will be able to do is convince people that the more blades hype has all been a lie, and maybe just maybe at that point people will look at shaving differently again.

mmack66 · Mar 14, 2009

DE/SE shaving is dead to any major razor manufacturers in the US. 40 years of cartridge propaganda has almost wiped DE/SE shaving from the collective conscience.

walds11 · Mar 14, 2009

Great write-up!

When exactly will the patent for the Mach3 expire? What about the Mach3 Turbo?

SavantStrike said:
Yeah, I too am in the US and have seen no advertising for DE's whatsoever. I'm more concerned that while the hobby may have grown a bit, the total user base of DE's will shrink.
Gillette is desperately trying to push the cartridge mania in developing countries, and I'm sure the other manufacturers are doing so as well. As countries that are traditionally straight/DE start converting to cartridges, the DE market as a whole will shrink. That is unless the hobby takes off in developed countries and people stop listening to the multiblade madness. I'm also thoroughly convinced that in another 5-15 years Gillette (now P&G) is screwed, this could help.

In the late 90's Gillette introduced the Mach 3 as a massive technical breakthrough due to it's 3 blade design. A few years later Schick introduced the quattro with 4 blades and claimed this was an improvement. After some lawsuits between the two companies over claims of razor superiority it was determined that neither company was allowed to claim their razor was better due to it being impossible to test. A scant 2 years after the quattro's release, Gillette released the fusion with 5 blades, again stating that they had reached a new pinnacle with a 5 blade shave. Now Gillette is in the tweaking phase with the fusion power gamer...

I see two potential outcomes here. One is that the dorco pace 6 somehow ends up on US shores or in a market where it is competing with the fusion. Gillette may feel the need to prove superiority without stating superiority (remember the lawsuit with Schick). To do this Gillette will have to counter with a 7 bladed razor or a majorly redesigned fusion (not sure what they can even change there...).

Another outcome is that in less than a decade the Mach 3 will no longer be under patent and when Gillette is forced to retire the design to keep competitors from making aftermarket blades they will be forced to replace the fusion design. Again since Gillete has hyped more blades as better, they need at least 6 or 7 blades to make a new one sell. That is far too many blades and the razor will be so unwieldy at that point that the only thing Gillette will be able to do is convince people that the more blades hype has all been a lie, and maybe just maybe at that point people will look at shaving differently again.

rdeakle · Mar 14, 2009

I lived in Germany for nearly 4 years, and never saw a single ad for DE/SE razors or any of the products that go with them (brushes, creams, soaps, &c.), and I lived in a large city to boot (Frankfurt am Main). It wasn't until I moved back to the US about a year and a half ago that I got into wetshaving.

Spatterdash · Mar 14, 2009

Before this thread gets all doom and gloom, I think it's worth mentioning that we in the US have seen a distinct rise in small boutique shops for shaving, like Art of Shaving and eShave.

There is enough of an interest in it's revival to make a small but distinct mark, and we do seem to be growing at a decent rate.
Though other countries may be buying into the cartridge scene, more and more guys are coming out of the woodwork, looking for a better way, and the more we spend on these products, the more the market sees us.

Person by person, we have to spread the word that shaving is something you will always have to deal with, it can be enjoyable instead of a chore, and there are better options than the McDonalds products of shaving in your local market.

As to original question... is it making a comeback? Yeah, it seems so. Membership here is huge and getting bigger each day, but it's a gradual thing, fueled mostly by the net.

Luc · Mar 14, 2009

Even when I was in Canada, I do not remember seeing anything like it. However, I was not looking for a new shaving gear so I have a tendency to ignore ads. I currently have no idea of what I can get in a pharmacy/chemist in Canada DE-wise (Brush, blades, DE razor, etc). I think the best way to go is online.

SepticTank · Mar 14, 2009

moto said:
Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?

Exactly the same - but the right way up :lol:

moto said:
I have also asked friends and guys at work and hardly any use DE's and none straights! The all look like they've seen a ghost when I mention DE's and shrink in size and reply to me like I'm offering them a killer virus at the mention of a straight razor!

They react as if you just said you come from Mars when you mention either here...

moto said:
Most of the guy's used DE's before but say they are too dangerous to use?

None of them I've talked to remember it - apart from people of my dad's generation (he's in mid-sixties)

moto said:
Only a very small amount of ads in some mens mags and only if your "looking for it", on the internet.

Never seen an advert for it - end of story.

moto said:
I suppose time has something to do with it but I think it would be a close call except if you use electric?

The sheeple that shop at the supermarket for everything is probably more like it.... and they stock whatever gives them the highest return (which of course can be manipulated by the Gillettes of the world to suit)

moto said:
I think more promotion/advertising needs to be done to let people know how good it is to shave, how relaxing it is, how it's cheaper in the long run and how it's good for your skin. Oh yeah,, and how wonderful it is to mmm,,,,,,faceterbate.

But Gillette & Wilkinson Sword won't let it happen - it leeches their market share and they both want to grow that - they already sold razors to women, conned 3 generations of blokes that more blades are better and now that not only do you need a Gillette razor with a Gillette cartridge in it, but you have to use Gillette foam/gel after using a Gillette facewash and after you've finished to use a Gillette balm/AS. Well I had a total Wilkinson Sword shave last evening - UK WS blade in a Schick Krona razor and used a WS soap stick for lather and a WS brush to make it - I could have had the same shave 20 years ago if I'd know about "proper" shaving then instead of wasting the intervening 20 years on goo and cheesegraters

SavantStrike · Mar 14, 2009

walds11 said:
Great write-up!

When exactly will the patent for the Mach3 expire? What about the Mach3 Turbo?

The M3 came out in 1998, and since they spent 750 million dollars developing it (yeah, I know!) I'm guessing that didn't happen overnight. I'm guessing the patent would be somewhere around 1996-1997, so anywhere between 2016 and 2017 and it's history! If the patent happened in 1995, it could be as early as 2012 as apparently during 1995 and before some patents only lasted 17 years. I know for a fact Gillette has a patent on their blade geometry which is considered desirable, that might expire in the next few years too.

Luc · Mar 14, 2009

SavantStrike said:
so anywhere between 2016 and 2017 and it's history!

I can't wait for the Gillette Mach6 :lol:

SavantStrike · Mar 14, 2009

I'm hoping for 7 blades myself. If Gillette makes a razor with 7 blades, I'll consider buying it just to make fun of it, but it would probably cost a kidney.

Ernie · Mar 14, 2009

Traditional wetshaving (DE and straight) has certainly increased in the past two years. When I joined B&B, there was almost one full page on activity in the B/S/T forum per day. Now, there are easily two pages each day of new/updated threads. Addtionally, the number of vendors for wetshaving prodcuts has increased, as well. Also, there are manufactures like Dovo who make new products.

Still, it appears that this is a specialty market and I doubt that all the traditional wetshaving goods bought make up 5% of the shaving products bought overall in the US. My only real concern is blade production. 'Swedes' are no more and that sucks. And while there are plenty of others like Derbys and Feathers, will they remain once those who were born pre 70s crap out and the 'new kids' know nothing else besides a gigantic amount of blades on one razor?

mmack66 · Mar 14, 2009

Luc said:
I can't wait for the Gillette Mach6

Proctor & Gamble is in a tight spot. The Fusion isn't selling as well as they thought it would. Their next razor can't have 6 blades on the front, because that has already been done. And nobody in their right mind will buy a 7 or 8 bladed razor, ridiculousness aside, the cost per cartridge would be in the 6-8 dollar range. I really think they went too far with the Fusion and fewer people are falling for it.

Ernie · Mar 14, 2009

We should unite the collective genius of B&B and campaign for DE shaving. It's a higher quality shave, way more economical (if you can control yourself), and helps the environment.

SepticTank · Mar 14, 2009

mmack66 said:
I really think they went too far with the Fusion and fewer people are falling for it.

Nor can they really row back from 5 blades - they've spent the last 2-3 years telling us how much better 5 is than 3, the previous 15 telling us how 3 is better than 2 and the 20 before that how 2 is better than 1. Even some sheeple remember that...

So expect more power, vibration, lights, music and sandwich making from the next Fusion - the "Fusion Cooker Ultrasonic Laserbeam"

herbnerd · Mar 14, 2009

mmack66 said:
And nobody in their right mind will buy a 7 or 8 bladed razor.

And this is when P&G introduce the DE with a twist - 4 blades each side!

Here in NZ, there is nothing in the way of DE being sold except for one specialist shop in Auckland, and a few Indian grocery stores. There is the Goodfella razor but at $120 each, I wonder how many he has sold. The push here as it is elsewhere is for the multibladed systems. I tell friends I get a better, closer shave with an old DE than I ever chould with a multiblade.

The last straw for me was getting some Schick multibladed system - 4 razors for $8 or something, using it and feeling like I hadn't shaved - either with, across or against the grain. I found a cheap DE in an indian store for $5, blades for $2.50 and been more than happy with the results and been telling people. I guess when one can get good shave creams more easily then interest will follow.

SavantStrike · Mar 14, 2009

SepticTank said:
Nor can they really row back from 5 blades - they've spent the last 2-3 years telling us how much better 5 is than 3, the previous 15 telling us how 3 is better than 2 and the 20 before that how 2 is better than 1. Even some sheeple remember that...

So expect more power, vibration, lights, music and sandwich making from the next Fusion - the "Fusion Cooker Ultrasonic Laserbeam"

Yeah but the Gillette business model is to make money off of the cartridges not the razor itself. Once that patent for the M3 cartridges ends, P&G will either have to accept third party blade/cartridge sales (which would kill the Fusion overnight) or ditch the M3 and sell nothing but the Fusion.
How they will sell nothing but the Fusion is also up for debate as then they won't have the lucrative 2 tier pricing they have now (expensive and firstborn child). I suppose they could ditch the M3, replace it with the fusion, and then make a new Fusion with a different head design to buy another 20 years, but how are they going to sell that one with two 5 blade razors at once?

DunEdinRanger · Mar 14, 2009

I think they just forgot what the business model should be like, possibly as an over reaction to almost getting knocked out of business by Wilkinson Sword in the 1960's.

The lesson that should have been learned then is quality first, but instead it was to spend money designing a system that could be patented and no one else could make blades for.

Just to recover the development costs represents a staggering sum of cartridges that have to be sold. You really have to wonder how that was sold at corporate HQ with regard to rate of return on the investment.

walds11 · Mar 14, 2009

Why would Gillette (P&G) ditch the M3 after the patent expires? They could keep selling it. They would obviously lose some market share when the third parties start selling it. Can you tell that I love the M3? M3 Turbo that is

SavantStrike said:
Yeah but the Gillette business model is to make money off of the cartridges not the razor itself. Once that patent for the M3 cartridges ends, P&G will either have to accept third party blade/cartridge sales (which would kill the Fusion overnight) or ditch the M3 and sell nothing but the Fusion.
How they will sell nothing but the Fusion is also up for debate as then they won't have the lucrative 2 tier pricing they have now (expensive and firstborn child). I suppose they could ditch the M3, replace it with the fusion, and then make a new Fusion with a different head design to buy another 20 years, but how are they going to sell that one with two 5 blade razors at once?

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Is DE/Straight wetshaving making a comeback.

moto

Bertilak

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walds11

rdeakle

Spatterdash

Luc

"To Wiki or Not To Wiki, That's The Question".

SepticTank

SavantStrike

Luc

"To Wiki or Not To Wiki, That's The Question".

SavantStrike

Ernie

mmack66

Ernie

SepticTank

herbnerd

SavantStrike

DunEdinRanger

walds11

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